Author Topic: Vagrant Passes - from Liverpool to Ireland  (Read 439 times)

Offline Mehrtsgirl

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Vagrant Passes - from Liverpool to Ireland
« on: Sunday 28 June 20 02:46 BST (UK) »
I have found a couple of entries in the record set 'Lancashire, England, Vagrant Passes, 1801-1835' (accessed through Ancestry) that are of interest to me (potential multiple great-grandie). I've read the record set description and have some additional questions.

Were there conditions associated with the vagrant pass i.e. once sent back to Ireland, could a person and their family return to Liverpool and would they need to meet certain criteria?

Could a person and their family be sent back to Ireland twice? I have found two records that may refer to the same Michael Hannon - 1827 and 1832. Would this incur additional penalties?

If the person and their family were not permitted/encouraged to return to Liverpool might they come via the backdoor? In this case, through Wales? Michael's daughter Jane says in two census' that she is from Bangor, Wales. While there may lots of explanations for this, I did wonder if this could fit a furtive return.

The 1827 record notes Michael had a wife and child but only 1 "passed" while the 1832 record shows a wife and two children and 4 were "passed". Does "passed" refer to actual traveller numbers or something else completely? Were the names of wives/children listed elsewhere (I can't see them near Michael's name)? If wives/children could be left behind, under what circumstances might this occur given that, presumably, the breadwinner was being removed?

For context. I believe my Michael Hannon may have died in Liverpool. His daughter certainly lived, married and died in Lancashire (Sankey and then Liverpool).

Appreciate any help. TIA.

Holohan, Darenzy (various), Farmer, Peacock, Formby, Hannon, Parsons

Offline california dreamin

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,124
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Vagrant Passes - from Liverpool to Ireland
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 04 July 20 12:26 BST (UK) »
Hi JR

An interesting dataset.  Just been looking at it myself.  I think the ditto marks don't actually indicate the 'same as the above'.  If you look at other examples I think the ditto marks just mean a single person.  Odd I know.  Passed seems to mean passes. If the system was like Settlement and Removal orders there was no financial penalty other than physically being removed. The whole family would be removed. People kept moving back or went to slightly different places where the parish officials weren't so officious.  So your lot may have come over again.  Many Irish did return annually to work the harvest but would return to Ireland.

The description also suggests  "Lancashire received more than their share of Irish immigrants, as other parishes often passed them to Lancashire to be shipped back to Ireland from Liverpool. Soldiers and sailors returning from wars often returned home and found themselves being passed back to their parishes of settlement, and you’ll find the names of many of them, as well as their wives and children, included in these records."  So they may have come from another county but were passed onto Lancashire

CD

Offline Mehrtsgirl

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: Vagrant Passes - from Liverpool to Ireland
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 05 July 20 00:14 BST (UK) »
Thanks CD  :)

I wasn't aware many Irish came in for the harvests and then returned to Ireland. May I ask some questions about this?
Did they come as family units or, for example, would a group of men from a local area come over together?
Would they live on or near the farm being harvested?
Is it reasonable to assume (!) those living in court housing were not seasonal workers but permanent residents?
If the census occurred while they were over from Ireland as seasonal workers, would they have been included (even though I'm guessing that April in the northern hemisphere may be not harvest time)?

I appreciate I have gone off on a tangent here but the seasonal worker idea may have relevance for these and other ancestors.

TIA.
 
JR


Holohan, Darenzy (various), Farmer, Peacock, Formby, Hannon, Parsons


Offline california dreamin

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,124
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Vagrant Passes - from Liverpool to Ireland
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 05 July 20 12:09 BST (UK) »
Hi JR

Yes, the Irish did come to England and Scotland for the harvests.  I'm not sure of the dynamic of those that came.  I suspect it would have been men (and boys over a certain age) and perhaps women of working age.  Mothers and children remaining at home, many would have small holdings so there would need to be family back in Ireland to tend to their plots.  I don't know where they would have been housed when working on the harvest.  Perhaps read about 20thc Tattie Hokers (or Howkers) in Scotland which might give you some idea - https://www.mayo-ireland.ie/en/towns-villages/ballycroy/ballycroy-history-tatie-hoking.html

or this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spalpeens-Tattie-Hokers-Migratory-Agricultural/dp/0716524503

Another source of books are the Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland. These are broken down in parishes.  These books contain a great variety of information including an idea of the numbers going to America (and from which townlands) sometimes with names and destinations and there are also names of people who migrated annually for the harvest in England and Scotland.  Just be aware that not all parishes are covered or all years.  Here's a sample from one of the books I have:  Emigration in 1835 from the parish of Kilcronaghan:  William Lesly, 23, Established Church, from Granny to Glasgow, John McCart 36, Established Church from Mormeal to Glasgow, James McWilliams 19, Roman Catholic, from Mormeal to Philadelphia....etc.  Migration:  List of person who migrate annually from the parish of Kilcronaghan:  James Hagan, 20, Patrick Hagan 30, Roman Catholics from Brackagh Rowley to Merryport in England, John Murphy, 22, RC from Brackagh Rowley to Merryport, James Bryan, cattle jobber, 28, Andrew Bryan Cattle jobber 24 RC from Keenaght to England etc etc.

You might also consider that places like Liverpool and Manchester during this period in time were burgeoning and needed a great deal of labour.  Roads, railways, canals, factories etc.  Therefore people living in the 'courts' may all have been working on these types of projects. The years you mention are prior to the Great Famine so I suspect these people are not escaping Ireland because of this. The fact they are being sent back to Ireland suggests this also.  Many of the parishes were quite  fierce and did not want families to became a financial burden on them.

If the census was being taken when these migrant workers were there then yes they would be included.

I suggest you might also like to read about Irish chain migration.  The Irish moving to areas where family or other members of their community  in Ireland may have emigrated to.

Anyway, I hope some of this may help!
CD

Added:  Hi JR - I have found this on wiki which might be of interest to you  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spailp%C3%ADn

Offline Mehrtsgirl

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: Vagrant Passes - from Liverpool to Ireland
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 18 July 20 05:40 BST (UK) »
Thank you CD. Apologies for the delay in acknowledging.

I'm looking forward to following up on the links you provided. The context you have provided is very helpful and exactly what I needed to spur me on to do more reading. Unfortunately I spend too little time considering my research within the 'bigger picture' and therefore miss important clues or explanations. Reading through the information you provided  has  made me feel quite a different connection with the ancestors I'm researching.

Thanks again for your time in replying and the additional reading heads up. I'm off to enjoy the links now.

JR 
Holohan, Darenzy (various), Farmer, Peacock, Formby, Hannon, Parsons