Tirrells in Cowfold area during 1700s

[MattD30]

I think it could all be possible, as the baptism for Elizabeth Terry as first child on 21 Apr 1728 fits in nicely before the baptism of John Terrell on 11 Feb 1729/30.

There might be a sea change about that time.
From a very basic search on FS, it's Terry all the way in Cowfold from 1700-1728, and then for more than three decades they seem to have no Terrys indexed there at all.
In that period it's all Terrels and Tirrells and  even Tirles (do they fit in?). Some of these would surely have been Terrys previously? Burial of a Richard Terrel in 1730, a Susanna Tirrell marriage in 1743, a Susan Terryll burial in 1747, etc.
I have not looked at images!

Could there be a link between a new vicar and a possible change of spelling or interpretation of the Terry name ?

After a long gap, there are three baptisms and three burials for Terry people at Cowfold from 1762 to 1780:

Baptisms:
Ann* 1762 d/o Richard & Mary
John 1765 s/o John & Christian
Sarah 1771 d/o John & Christian.

Burials:
Hanna/Hannah 1774
John 1777
Mary 1780.

I was thinking along the same lines as you jonw65, re: the new vicar and his spellings, thanks for looking at that & suggesting it.

*The baptism entry on Family Search for Ann has Terry, from the PR.  However, there is a note on the Sussex Family History Group Data Archive (for members) which states "BT has Tirrell as surname."  That is very good news, I think!  If that applies to the much earlier Terrys, then we might be getting somewhere.

I agree, that note in the SFHG archive refering to the BT is definitely good news. Have you looked at the BT itself? If it's online then it might be worth going through it to see how often "Terry" appears as "Terrell/Terrill" or visa vera.

Matt

[tillypeg]

I was going to attach the snips of the PR and BTs baptism for Ann Terry/Tirrell 12 April 1762 at Cowfold but your post is on the Lookup Request Board and as such it doesn't allow attachments. 

The PR entry is on page 131 of 602.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DRTP-H5 

The BTs entry is on page 154 of 742.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1DW-23R?i=153&cat=75082

Looking at the baptisms for the 10 children of Joseph & Mary Tirrell on the SFHG archive, there are no similar notes re: Terry/Tirrell.  The only note is for Sarah 10 Feb 1733/34 - "No PR. BT only" so it seems the SFHG could have compared the PRs with the BTs and noted any differences etc.

I don't know about you, Matt, but I feel fairly confident that the marriage at Itchingfield for Joseph Terry and Mary Hughes, both of Cowfold, on 5 Feb 1726 is the one we are looking for.  Many thanks for this to jonw65   

[MattD30]

I was going to attach the snips of the PR and BTs baptism for Ann Terry/Tirrell 12 April 1762 at Cowfold but your post is on the Lookup Request Board and as such it doesn't allow attachments. 

The PR entry is on page 131 of 602.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DRTP-H5 

The BTs entry is on page 154 of 742.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1DW-23R?i=153&cat=75082

Looking at the baptisms for the 10 children of Joseph & Mary Tirrell on the SFHG archive, there are no similar notes re: Terry/Tirrell.  The only note is for Sarah 10 Feb 1733/34 - "No PR. BT only" so it seems the SFHG could have compared the PRs with the BTs and noted any differences etc.

I don't know about you, Matt, but I feel fairly confident that the marriage at Itchingfield for Joseph Terry and Mary Hughes, both of Cowfold, on 5 Feb 1726 is the one we are looking for.  Many thanks for this to jonw65 

I'll take a look at those PR and BT entries later or tomorrow.

I agree with you about the marriage of Joseph Terry and Mary Hughes, it's the only spelling variation of the name which has come any closer to giving us any clues. I'm pretty confident that the name could have been written "Terryll" originally and then if the "ll" started to fade it could easily end up being read/transcribed as "Terry"

I think the other thing we need to keep in mind is was Joseph married twice? We still have that marriage of Joseph Tirrell and Mary Garton which I found. The spacing out of the children suggests to me that it is highly possible but until we can find a burial for the first wife it's hard to be certain.

However I think you are right and the Terry/Hughes marriage in Cowfold is definitely something we should follow up.

Matt

[tillypeg]

Re: the marriage you suggested as Joseph’s second one: from FamilySearch the PR is very damaged, the lower outer corners are missing, and the entry reads “Joseph Terrell & Mary Garton…...Parish were married February...”  The next entry is for July 6th 1737.  The only date you can see because of the PR damage before Joseph’s record is the next but one above and dated April 26th 1736, so I think Joseph & Mary were married 17 Feb 1736/37.  Image No. 240 of 314.

On the same film Image No. 191/314 is a transcription of Extracts from the BTs: 1736 17 Feb. Marr. Joseph Terrell and Mary Garton both of this Parish. (Mutld. in PR)

The dates in this printed transcription seem to hop about a bit, owing to the mutilated PR having incomplete entries.

As we have the first Mary’s baptism at Cowfold on 2 Feb 1736/37 I think that makes the Terrell/Garton marriage at Ifield on 17 Feb 1736/37 fairly unlikely. 

Admittedly there are other odd gaps between births (2nd John 1743 to 2nd Sarah 1748) but I am not unduly concerned and am content that the marriage to Mary Hughs is the only one. (for now anyway!)

BTW, I have looked at Richard’s baptism again and it is 3 Feb 1739/40 not what we had originally 3 Feb 1740/41, which spaces out the births a bit more.

Also, you had the first Mary’s death as 1 Jan 1741/42 which is how FamilySearch have it transcribed but looking at the PR image it is the entry for the second Mary’s baptism.  The christenings and burials are all listed together and that date is the baptism of “our” Mary.  So the burial of the first Mary is not there unfortunately…...

In your original posting, the last Sarah in your list should be 12 Nov 1752, not 1742.

For the other Sarah I found (the first Sarah baptised 10 Feb 1733/34) there is a burial at Cowfold on 7 Nov 1738 which could be her.

[MattD30]

Re: the marriage you suggested as Joseph’s second one: from FamilySearch the PR is very damaged, the lower outer corners are missing, and the entry reads “Joseph Terrell & Mary Garton…...Parish were married February...”  The next entry is for July 6th 1737.  The only date you can see because of the PR damage before Joseph’s record is the next but one above and dated April 26th 1736, so I think Joseph & Mary were married 17 Feb 1736/37.  Image No. 240 of 314.

On the same film Image No. 191/314 is a transcription of Extracts from the BTs: 1736 17 Feb. Marr. Joseph Terrell and Mary Garton both of this Parish. (Mutld. in PR)

The dates in this printed transcription seem to hop about a bit, owing to the mutilated PR having incomplete entries.

As we have the first Mary’s baptism at Cowfold on 2 Feb 1736/37 I think that makes the Terrell/Garton marriage at Ifield on 17 Feb 1736/37 fairly unlikely. 

Admittedly there are other odd gaps between births (2nd John 1743 to 2nd Sarah 1748) but I am not unduly concerned and am content that the marriage to Mary Hughs is the only one. (for now anyway!)

BTW, I have looked at Richard’s baptism again and it is 3 Feb 1739/40 not what we had originally 3 Feb 1740/41, which spaces out the births a bit more.

Also, you had the first Mary’s death as 1 Jan 1741/42 which is how FamilySearch have it transcribed but looking at the PR image it is the entry for the second Mary’s baptism.  The christenings and burials are all listed together and that date is the baptism of “our” Mary.  So the burial of the first Mary is not there unfortunately…...

In your original posting, the last Sarah in your list should be 12 Nov 1752, not 1742.

For the other Sarah I found (the first Sarah baptised 10 Feb 1733/34) there is a burial at Cowfold on 7 Nov 1738 which could be her.

Hi

Sorry I mistyped the dates regarding Joseph's children. I do have the same dates as you on my notes anyhow so that was just a case of me misreading what I had put lol!

I don't think we should dismiss the marriage of Joseph Tirrell and Mary Garton completely yet. Although the gap between the children is a bit smaller I think it is still entirely possible she is a second wife.

I think we may find the answers if we can examine any wills relating to the Hughes or Garton families which might mention the Tirrells. If we find them mentioned in wills relating to both then we can be confident there is a likely connection.

Obviously it's entirely possible that the Tirrell/Garton marriage is unrelated but I think we should still keep it in mind. The only thing that would rule it out completely I think would be the discovery of a christening for another Joseph Tirrell which would at least show we are dealing with two people.

I'll do some more digging on the Terrys and Hughes you mentioned as well as looking for any wills relating to them or the Garton families.

Matt

[tillypeg]

Yes, there is another Joseph Terry baptism.  On 26 Aug 1712 at Cowfold, son of Joseph the young & Elizabeth Terry.  Perhaps this one married Mary Garton in 1736/37?  He would be a bit young for the marriage to Mary Hughes in 1726/27, though their first child was Elizabeth…..

Another thing, if we are considering the Terry/Hughes marriage and take Mary Hughes’ baptism at Cowfold on 2 Aug 1702 d/o John & Mary which jonw65 found, as the right one, then the last 3 children we have for Joseph & Mary – Sarah 1748, John 1749 & Sarah 1752 might not be theirs, but could belong to a different younger Joseph & Mary.  Certainly Mary could be considered too old for the last Sarah in 1752. 

If those 3 children do not belong to Joseph senior & Mary, then perhaps the burial for Mary Terrell at Cowfold on 8 June 1745 might be the correct one, her last child being John 1743.

[tillypeg]

Another thought, perhaps the reason there isn’t a burial for Mary baptised 1736/37 is that the second Mary (“ours”) 1741/42 belongs to the other Joseph & Mary?  The PRs and BTs don’t say senior or junior or younger in the baptisms, as they are not father & son, merely both called Joseph and have a wife Mary!  Perhaps “our” Mary is from the Terry/Garton marriage?  Likewise, there isn't a burial for the first John 1729/30, so the second John 1743 belongs to the Terry/Garton marriage and Richard 1739/40 could be their first child.

Oh dear

[MattD30]

Well the discovery of a christening for a second Joseph definitely makes this more interesting and puzzling.

I'll go through the bits we've found between us and see if I can sort them into family groups, one for Joseph TERRY and Mary Hughes, and one for Joseph TIRRELL and Mary Garton.

Obviously something that would help us with all this is a few wills. I've had a look online to see if I can see any wills but so far I can't see any for the names Terry, Terrell, Garton or Hughes in that area.

I will keep looking though.

More soon

Best Wishes
Matt

[jonw65]

There is one in the PCC
Will of Richard Terrell, Miller of Cowfold, Sussex
27 April 1731
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D664203

Free on TNA, and is also on ancestry.