Author Topic: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century  (Read 1197 times)

Offline fisherj

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Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« on: Friday 03 July 20 19:54 BST (UK) »
For several years I have puzzled over the following problem which boils down to whether, in Cwmgors, there could possibly have been 2 blacksmiths called Thomas DAVIES, with wives called Rachel and daughters called Margaret.  And so would be interested in any comments from Rootschatters before finally deciding there must have been - and moving on!

I have "my" Thomas and Rachel DAVIES in the censuses at Nant y Gaseg, Cwmgors from 1851 to 1871 (and their descendents after that).  I believe I have them in 1841 too, in Rhyndwyclydach.  They were members of Baran chapel and are buried there.  I have information on his background including that he was a grandmaster of the Oddfellows.

I don't know Rachel's name before marriage but it can't be PENDRY.  Thomas DAVIES and Rachel PENDRY'S daughter Margaret was born on 2 Nov 1850 and Thomas wrote his mark.  This Margaret's age does not fit with the census details anyway.  But he was a blacksmith and lived in Cwmgors.

"My" Thomas and Rachel DAVIES's daughter Margaret married Jonah WILLIAMS in 1862 and Thomas  together with his son John were witnesses.  She couldn't have got married at 12 years!

Cwmgors could not have been very big at that time.  So the names and occupations have to be a coincidence.  Don't they?  Just one problem - I just can't find the other Thomas DAVIES on the censuses!

Many thanks
Woodmancote:  Hobbs; Davison
Bisley:  Fisher
Eastcombe:  Winstone
Chalford:  Lambert
Newent:  Bowkett
Llangurig: Owen; Jones
Llangurig & Bedlinog: Rees
Llanonn: Williams
Charfield:  Fowler; Selman
Olveston:  Fisher
Batheaston: Fisher
Andover, Hurstbourne, Woodcutt, Shinfield: Farmer & Tanner
Alresford: Sprangle; Hack
Martletwy & Llangwig:  Davies

Offline osprey

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Re: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 04 July 20 13:30 BST (UK) »
think I'm inclined to wonder about the birth registration. There's this marriage in Llandybie, Rachel's place of birth according to the census entries

16 Jan 1841 parish church of Llandybie
Thomas Davies full bach blacksmith Cwmbach father George Davies farmer
Rachel Pendry full spinster servant maid Cwmbach father Philip Hendry farmer
witnesses John Davies & Robert Davies, all sign apart from Rachel.

Baptism same parish 24 Aug 1813 Rachel daughter of Philip, labourer, & Rachel Penry.
Philip Penry married Rachel Powel 7 May 1813 witnesses Thomas Mathias & Thomas Penry.

Possible in Martletwy for Thomas 5 May 1817 son of George, labourer, & Margaret of Weston Village.

1841 census Weston, Martletwy HO107/1448/15 folio 19 pg 8
George Davies 60 coal miner
Margaret 55
Margaret 15
all born in county

1851 the 2 Margarets are still in Weston, Margaret senior 71 born Amroth. Neighbour is James Davies, blacksmith, who could be a brother.
 
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

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Re: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 04 July 20 15:08 BST (UK) »
back to Llandybie

baptism 23Jan 1825 for Philip, son of Philip, farmer, & Rachel Penry of Cwmbach

burial 25 Aug 1826 Rachel Penry 38 of Blaen Cwmbach

marriage 16 Feb 1827 of Philip Penry widower & Hannah Davies widow, witnesses John Loyd & Jacob Pendry

1841 Cwmbach, Llandybie HO107/1384/12 folio 26 pg 1
Philip Penry 50 farmer
Hannah 50
Mary Davies 20
all born in county

burial 31 Jan 1851 Philip Penry 62 of Cwmbach

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01poe/

baptism for Philip 30 March 1790 son of Rees & Edekiah Penry
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline fisherj

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Re: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 04 July 20 15:41 BST (UK) »
Thank you Osprey.

That is Thomas DAVIES birth in Martletwy to George and Margaret.

I have the marriage cert for the PENDRY/DAVIES marriage and assumed it incorrectly stated Thomas had signed because on the birth certificate for their daughter Margaret it states his mark. 

And... well... the 2 witnesses have the same names as 2 of "my" Thomas's brothers....coincidence may be....??!

Anyway....
"My" Margaret was born about 1847 in Llangwig according to the 1851 census.   

Her marriage cert to Jonah has both Thomas and her elder brother John (b Llangyfelach) as witnesses who signed.   

I was unable to find a birth cert for John.

So I can't work out why they would register her birth and not his - 3 years or so after the event?

I have certificates too re Pendry.  And it is Philip and Hannah who are Rachel's parents i am confident of that.

Any further thoughts?

Many thanks for looking at this.
Woodmancote:  Hobbs; Davison
Bisley:  Fisher
Eastcombe:  Winstone
Chalford:  Lambert
Newent:  Bowkett
Llangurig: Owen; Jones
Llangurig & Bedlinog: Rees
Llanonn: Williams
Charfield:  Fowler; Selman
Olveston:  Fisher
Batheaston: Fisher
Andover, Hurstbourne, Woodcutt, Shinfield: Farmer & Tanner
Alresford: Sprangle; Hack
Martletwy & Llangwig:  Davies


Offline osprey

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Re: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 04 July 20 16:49 BST (UK) »
Rachel's mother is Rachel, Hannah was the second wife.

I have no explanation of why Margaret would be registered so late.
Perhaps Thomas didn't want to put his signature against something incorrect or the registrar said 'put your mark there' or something like.
I think the census and parish records hold together better than the evidence of the birth cert. As you say, no sign of a Margaret that matches the cert.

You may already have this map which shows the smithy
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pof/
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline fisherj

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Re: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 04 July 20 17:59 BST (UK) »
Yes - sorry Rachel is Rachel's mother. 

Since you have given some credibility back to the Penry line, i am wondering about the 2 witnesses John and Robert Davies... if they were Thomas's brothers whether they had relocated to Llangyfelach or Llandybie area with him.  (I think i've already explained he had brothers with those names!)

The Davies/Pendry marriage cert has George as the groom's father so that fits too.... it's Margaret's cert that later threw me.

And...and this will be difficult...but it would be interesting to know who the Mr Davies was that Hannah had previously married. 

And indeed I am going to put a general post on Rootschat to see whether anyone else knows of a birth being registered late.

I'll have to find out if philip penry left a will too.

Just one more thing i found interesting...on the marriage cert, Rachel is Pendry and her father Hendry.  The registrar attached a note to say that was not an error but as per the original. 

I have found a Philip John ap Henry of Llandybie but had not followed up on that for fear if wasting time barking up the wrong
Family tree.

Many thanks again.
Woodmancote:  Hobbs; Davison
Bisley:  Fisher
Eastcombe:  Winstone
Chalford:  Lambert
Newent:  Bowkett
Llangurig: Owen; Jones
Llangurig & Bedlinog: Rees
Llanonn: Williams
Charfield:  Fowler; Selman
Olveston:  Fisher
Batheaston: Fisher
Andover, Hurstbourne, Woodcutt, Shinfield: Farmer & Tanner
Alresford: Sprangle; Hack
Martletwy & Llangwig:  Davies

Offline osprey

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Re: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 04 July 20 18:12 BST (UK) »
I've looked for a will for Philip and there isn't one in the NLW index.

The original church record is on FindmyPast, there's a scan of the parish register.

I'll see if I can find a possible for Hannah.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

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Re: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 04 July 20 18:53 BST (UK) »
this looks possible, all in Llandybie

marriage 17 Feb 1807 Rees Davies & Hannah Morgan

burials
21 July 1818 Hannah Davies 5 of Cwmmwg
9 August 1818 Rees David 33 of Cwmmwg

baptisms
22 Nov 1809 Hannah David daughter of Rees & Hannah
16 March 1812 Rees Davies, son of Rees & Hannah
26 March 1814 Hannah Davies daughter of Rees, collier, & Hannah of Cwmmwg
14 July 1816 Mary Davies daughter of Rees, collier, and Hannah of Cwmmwg

marriage 15 Sept 1843
David Morgan full bach smith Parkyrhyn father John Morgan smith
Mary Davies full spinster Cwmbach father Rees Davies farmer
witnesses Evan Walters & John Harris

will of Hannah Penry with son-in-law David Morgan
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01poh/

baptism 2 Dec 1844 Hannah Morgan daughter of David, smith, and Mary of Cwmbach
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline fisherj

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Re: Thomas DAVIES Cwmgors 19th Century
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 04 July 20 19:57 BST (UK) »
Osprey - that is so very helpful - really kind of you.

I've been drawing this new info into a family tree so as to digest it better and I am surrounded by my previous notes!

David MORGAN who married Mary DAVIES (daughter of Hannah MORGAN/DAVIES/PENRY was present at the death of Philip PENRY, his step father-in-law at the Golden Lion Penybank LLandebie in 1851.

I'm not sure how if at all Hannah MORGAN is related to him. 

(I already have a MORGAN, Gwenllian, in my direct line - from Y Betws Carms.  I have not been able to establish her parents or family but that is another story!!)

I was hoping that in some way I could connect Rees DAVIES with my DAVIESes.  But no such luck.   Of course Thomas DAVIES may have moved to the area on his own.  Some of his other brothers were blacksmiths too.

I'll do some more work on John and Robert DAVIES too.

Very many thanks - I'm waiting to see a response to my post on the general forum about delayed birth registrations.

I did have a thought though.... perhaps he injured his hand (temporarily) and that's why he could not sign to register Margaret's birth.  Doesn't explain the lateness though.

Many thanks again.



Woodmancote:  Hobbs; Davison
Bisley:  Fisher
Eastcombe:  Winstone
Chalford:  Lambert
Newent:  Bowkett
Llangurig: Owen; Jones
Llangurig & Bedlinog: Rees
Llanonn: Williams
Charfield:  Fowler; Selman
Olveston:  Fisher
Batheaston: Fisher
Andover, Hurstbourne, Woodcutt, Shinfield: Farmer & Tanner
Alresford: Sprangle; Hack
Martletwy & Llangwig:  Davies