Author Topic: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus  (Read 2315 times)

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 09 July 20 07:37 BST (UK) »
The reason for lockdown, protecting the NHS, is long since achieved so time for everyone to get back to work. It is also time for the NHS to resume its role of protecting us, and against ALL illnesses, not just Covid 19.

I couldn't agree more, and not just back to work but back to living & spending too. 

Perhaps those older/high risk people that we protected by staying home for so long now have a moral duty to repay the favour by getting their wallets out to protect the jobs of the low risk/young.

I'm sure there will be lots of indignation, but older people - many of whom own their homes outright - were by far the main beneficiaries of the lock-down, yet I didn't see any pensioners taking a 20% cut in income, or losing their income entirely, or falling into arrears on their mortgage/rent and other bills whilst struggling to turn their homes into a classroom. 

Personally I feel that if you haven't suffered financially (and I include myself in this) then the very least you should be doing now is putting some money back into the economy to protect jobs.  If you've nothing you can spend it on then buy some vouchers & shove them through the letterbox of someone who can use them.


You might not have seen how high risk and vulnerable older people suffered during the lockdown as most don't moan about it but just get on with it like they always have.

The young did not do them a favour but obeyed the law as did everyone else, therefore there is no moral  duty to repay any favour.

Many pensioners also work and have had that income not cut by 20% but but by 100% as they have dropped through the furlough gap etc., by being self-employed.

Some if not many have also been looking after their grandchildren during the lockdown including educating them, to allow the children's parents to work.
Instead of trying to make them feel guilty, perhaps it is time the young thought about just what those pensioners might have gone through and thank them not just for what they have done over the last few months but what they have done through most of their lives, not because they are obeying the law.
Not because they ask for thanks, but because they have been there and given what they can freely without being asked for most of their lives.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline roopat

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 09 July 20 08:12 BST (UK) »
The reason for lockdown, protecting the NHS, is long since achieved so time for everyone to get back to work. It is also time for the NHS to resume its role of protecting us, and against ALL illnesses, not just Covid 19.

I couldn't agree more, and not just back to work but back to living & spending too. 

Perhaps those older/high risk people that we protected by staying home for so long now have a moral duty to repay the favour by getting their wallets out to protect the jobs of the low risk/young.

I'm sure there will be lots of indignation, but older people - many of whom own their homes outright - were by far the main beneficiaries of the lock-down, yet I didn't see any pensioners taking a 20% cut in income, or losing their income entirely, or falling into arrears on their mortgage/rent and other bills whilst struggling to turn their homes into a classroom. 

Personally I feel that if you haven't suffered financially (and I include myself in this) then the very least you should be doing now is putting some money back into the economy to protect jobs.  If you've nothing you can spend it on then buy some vouchers & shove them through the letterbox of someone who can use them.


You might not have seen how high risk and vulnerable older people suffered during the lockdown as most don't moan about it but just get on with it like they always have.

The young did not do them a favour but obeyed the law as did everyone else, therefore there is no moral  duty to repay any favour.

Many pensioners also work and have had that income not cut by 20% but but by 100% as they have dropped through the furlough gap etc., by being self-employed.

Some if not many have also been looking after their grandchildren during the lockdown including educating them, to allow the children's parents to work.
Instead of trying to make them feel guilty, perhaps it is time the young thought about just what those pensioners might have gone through and thank them not just for what they have done over the last few months but what they have done through most of their lives, not because they are obeying the law.
Not because they ask for thanks, but because they have been there and given what they can freely without being asked for most of their lives.
Cheers
Guy


Well said, Guy
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Offline Jomot

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 09 July 20 12:42 BST (UK) »

You might not have seen how high risk and vulnerable older people suffered during the lockdown as most don't moan about it but just get on with it like they always have.

The young did not do them a favour but obeyed the law as did everyone else, therefore there is no moral  duty to repay any favour.

Many pensioners also work and have had that income not cut by 20% but but by 100% as they have dropped through the furlough gap etc., by being self-employed.

Some if not many have also been looking after their grandchildren during the lockdown including educating them, to allow the children's parents to work.
Instead of trying to make them feel guilty, perhaps it is time the young thought about just what those pensioners might have gone through and thank them not just for what they have done over the last few months but what they have done through most of their lives, not because they are obeying the law.
Not because they ask for thanks, but because they have been there and given what they can freely without being asked for most of their lives.
Cheers
Guy
So if the young didn't do anyone a favour, you'll be OK with them going about their lives as normal now will you?  Oh hang on, no - you want them to behave like there's a pandemic that's likely to kill them, when actually there isn't and never was - there's a pandemic that's likely to kill the old. 

The law they followed wasn't to protect them, it was to protect you.  In England alone more than half of all deaths were in the 80+ age group, drop that to 60+ and its over 90%. 

Your claim that many pensioners also work is unsubstantiated.  But even if true, they did not lose 100% of their income - a pensioner by definition receives a pension, and they still received 100% of it throughout.  And unlike young entrepreneurs who have no 'second income', self-employed pensioners are also more likely to have 3-years of accounts simply by definition of their age, thereby qualifying for the furlough pay. 

If the elderly were caring for children then they were breaking the law, unless they lived in the same house.  Schools were open for the children of essential workers.  I know, my husband works in one.

I saw first hand how older people suffered - I'm a carer for one - but other than loneliness and relying on others for deliveries etc, it was no greater a suffering than anyone else.   At least for the old there was a reason - preserving their own life - the purpose of locking down the young was what? 

And sorry, but the young have no reason whatsoever to thank anyone, other than their own families and the small number of veterans still living.  The majority of pensioners (over 65's) have done no more in their lives than what the young are trying to do - work & raise families. 

I stand by my original statement - if you did not suffer financially then you have a moral duty to put some money back into the economy to protect the jobs of those who did.   
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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 09 July 20 13:52 BST (UK) »

So if the young didn't do anyone a favour, you'll be OK with them going about their lives as normal now will you?

Try to read and understand what the various laws and regulations state. The young and most other people in the UK cannot go about their lives as normal as that is against the law, there are a whole host of laws and regulations which prevent that.

Oh hang on, no - you want them to behave like there's a pandemic that's likely to kill them, when actually there isn't and never was - there's a pandemic that's likely to kill the old.

No I want them to be sensible and obey the law of the land, I certainly do not want them to live in fear of a pandemic which could kill them, but to take sensible precautions as they  like every other person in the UK who has not had Covid-19 could catch it. Most people who catch Covid-19 survive though many if not most are left with some consequences that may affect them for the rest of their lives.

The law they followed wasn't to protect them, it was to protect you.  In England alone more than half of all deaths were in the 80+ age group, drop that to 60+ and its over 90%.

No the law is their to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed and to try to protect doctors and nurses being killed in the course of helping those who caught the virus. There are many people under 60 who have caught covid-19 and are still suffering the consequences, they might not have died from it, though some have, but that does not mean their lives have not been blighted by it in some cases for the rest of their lives.

Your claim that many pensioners also work is unsubstantiated.  But even if true, they did not lose 100% of their income - a pensioner by definition receives a pension, and they still received 100% of it throughout.  And unlike young entrepreneurs who have no 'second income', self-employed pensioners are also more likely to have 3-years of accounts simply by definition of their age, thereby qualifying for the furlough pay.

By pensioner I meant a person eligible to collected their state pension. Many such people carry on working and have deferred their pension, in other words they do not get it. Some are self-employed and are not eligible for any of the furlough schemes and other schemes in place for a number of reasons, even if they have been working for themselves for over the three year requirement.

If the elderly were caring for children then they were breaking the law, unless they lived in the same house.  Schools were open for the children of essential workers.  I know, my husband works in one.

Many grandparents have done precisely that, they have some of their grandchildren living with them throughout the lockdown, perfectly legally, to enable the children's parents to work. Many parents withdrew their children from school as they thought it was the safest option

I saw first hand how older people suffered - I'm a carer for one - but other than loneliness and relying on others for deliveries etc, it was no greater a suffering than anyone else.   At least for the old there was a reason - preserving their own life - the purpose of locking down the young was what? 

And sorry, but the young have no reason whatsoever to thank anyone, other than their own families and the small number of veterans still living.  The majority of pensioners (over 65's) have done no more in their lives than what the young are trying to do - work & raise families.

Many of us are carers, who incidently cease to be eligible to carers allowance on reaching retirement age, even though they still care for the disabled person.
Who do you think those pensioners are they are the mothers and the fathers and grandparents of the young, you think they should be helping yet again?
Perhaps when you retire you may have time to read and actually learn just what sacrifices you parents and grandparents have had to make for you throughout their lives, and I don't just mean in monetary terms.

I stand by my original statement - if you did not suffer financially then you have a moral duty to put some money back into the economy to protect the jobs of those who did.   

You are entitled to that opinion but there is no moral duty on anyone to pay more into the economy than they already are doing and who will continue to do so for many years to come probably at a higher rate than they do today.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline Jomot

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 09 July 20 17:39 BST (UK) »
Try to read and understand what the various laws and regulations state. The young and most other people in the UK cannot go about their lives as normal as that is against the law, there are a whole host of laws and regulations which prevent that.
Yes, the laws that exist to protect the elderly/vulnerable.  Not the young.

No I want them to be sensible and obey the law of the land, I certainly do not want them to live in fear of a pandemic which could kill them
But that's the point.  The pandemic isn't killing the young, and most aren't in fear of it.  They are, however, in fear of losing their jobs and homes, and fearful for their children's education.

No the law is their to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed and to try to protect doctors and nurses being killed in the course of helping those who caught the virus.
Hospitals were never at risk of being overwhelmed by the young - it was mainly the middle aged and elderly.  The number of young people who have died or become seriously ill is minuscule.

Perhaps when you retire you may have time to read and actually learn just what sacrifices you parents and grandparents have had to make for you throughout their lives, and I don't just mean in monetary terms.
I'm already retired.  So tell me what sacrifices my parents made that are any greater than the sacrifices I made for my child?  I was a single parent working full-time and paying for childcare, and I don't believe for one second that my son owes me a thing.  Monetary or otherwise.

there is no moral duty on anyone to pay more into the economy than they already are doing and who will continue to do so for many years to come probably at a higher rate than they do today.
Lucky them - they will still have an income to be taxed, unlike those who are being thrown out of work & worrying how to keep a roof over their heads. 

So in summary, the country had a duty to keep you safe during the pandemic - at a massive cost to the economy and to the young families still trying to make their way in life - but you have no duty to help it & them recover?  If that's the general attitude of the older generation (and I sincerely hope it isn't) then I have to wonder whether it was worth it.
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Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 09 July 20 20:31 BST (UK) »
I agree with Guy, and I can't see how anyone could view older people as 'beneficiaries' of the lockdown.  Everyone has had their own problems, you can't generalise.  Take my situation - I am retired, I have pensions.  My daughter, who lives with me, is self-employed, but more importantly, she has been very ill and was due for major surgery on 26th March.  This was cancelled and she was sent home, so together we have been isolating since then.  She received a one-off payment from the govt as she's self-employed, but is unable to claim sick pay.  Fortunately she's too ill to eat (she has lost 20kg in weight) so she's very cheap to run.

The two of us have spent the last three and a half months in some kind of limbo, worrying about her health, trying to stay away from people, worrying that anything she eats might mean a frantic dash back to A&E....  But what gets her (and me) howling with rage has been the people who have been totally disregarding the lockdown rules, claiming that the virus doesn't exist, and insisting that they have a right to do as they please.  I am sure all the people - young and old - who are stuck at home desperately awaiting the resumption of life-saving surgery will empathise with this. 

We need to start working together like a proper society again, acknowledging that every age-group has a lot to give, and that we are all important.  Put aside the 'I have a right...' mentality, and ask what you can do to help make things better, perhaps?
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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 09 July 20 20:40 BST (UK) »
Yes, the laws that exist to protect the elderly/vulnerable.  Not the young.

No the laws were put in place to prevent the NHS falling over as had happened in Italy.
There were also laws in place to allow retired doctors and nurses to return to work (putting them at risk of contracting Covid-19).

But that's the point.  The pandemic isn't killing the young, and most aren't in fear of it.  They are, however, in fear of losing their jobs and homes, and fearful for their children's education.

Try telling the parents, spouses, children and friends of the 1927 under 60s that died covid-19 does not kill the young try explaining to the parents of the 11 children under 20 that died  that covid-19 does not kill them.

Hospitals were never at risk of being overwhelmed by the young - it was mainly the middle aged and elderly.  The number of young people who have died or become seriously ill is minuscule.


No one ever claimed the hospitals would be overwhelmed by the young, but young adults can and do spread the virus. Young car drivers can and do kill and injury other road users, the lockdown of the young prevented a good proportion of these.

I'm already retired.  So tell me what sacrifices my parents made that are any greater than the sacrifices I made for my child?  I was a single parent working full-time and paying for childcare, and I don't believe for one second that my son owes me a thing.  Monetary or otherwise.

You have said yourself in your answer your parents made sacrifices for you.
I did not say your children owed you anything it is you making the claims the older generation owe the young.

Lucky them - they will still have an income to be taxed, unlike those who are being thrown out of work & worrying how to keep a roof over their heads.

Will they some will not be able to go back to their previous employment, some may have business debts so great they will loose their homes and some will have a basic income that they would struggle to survive don't forget, some taxes have to paid regardless of income  and these could easily be raised.

So in summary, the country had a duty to keep you safe during the pandemic - at a massive cost to the economy and to the young families still trying to make their way in life - but you have no duty to help it & them recover?  If that's the general attitude of the older generation (and I sincerely hope it isn't) then I have to wonder whether it was worth it.

No the only person who had a duty to keep me and the people living with me safe was myself, if the truth be known some of the laws put in place left me, my wife and my granddaughter at greater risk than if lockdown had not been imposed. We stayed safe not because of anything anybody else did or did not do but due to the actions we took ourselves.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline Jomot

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 09 July 20 20:49 BST (UK) »
You're determined to be 'right' Guy, so crack on. 

I'll just keep doing what I can to support my local businesses & local jobs. 
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Offline groom

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Re: Furlough scheme - employers to get bonus
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 09 July 20 20:53 BST (UK) »
I totally agree with Greensleeves and Guy. If anything this virus hasn't made the country work together, ever since it began it has split it into two, especially with the posts on social media. Right from the start there were complaints about older people not staying in all the time - something they were never told to do, only advised, unless they received a letter telling them they had to shield. It was only those who were entitled to the extras, the rest had to struggle to get food deliveries or had to go out to supermarkets. People haven't read the actual Government guidelines but instead go by information in the tabloid newspapers or even worse from sites such as FaceBook.

Then you had older people complaining about younger people disregarding the guidelines and meeting up with friends.

If we are going to get this country back on its feet we now need to work together. Neither group owes each other.
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