Author Topic: Millers and Millwrights  (Read 627 times)

Offline Greensleeves

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Millers and Millwrights
« on: Sunday 12 July 20 11:54 BST (UK) »
Can anyone tell us the difference between a Miller and a Millwright?   Jan Groom and I are researching the history of a Welsh water mill, and we're trying to establish how old it might be, and who were the millers who lived and worked there.  The current buildings are thought to date from the late 18th/early 19th century, although we have found evidence that there has been a mill there, or nearby, since at least 1308.

In the 1841 census we have Jonathan Williams, born about 1781, Breconshire and he is shown as being a Millwright. We know he was there in 1815 as he gives the Mill as his address for the baptism of his son.   He died in 1851 and the 1861 census shows a William Moore there, and he is a Miller.  We have also found other people shown as Millers or Millwrights in the village at various times who have not lived at the mill itself - although there were two other mills fairly close by.

So, would anyone like to explain to us the difference between a Miller and a Millwright - and would a Millwright live at a mill and run it, or would he be likely to employ a Miller as well?  Also, later on it seemed that millers sometimes advertised themselves as 'miller & engine driver' so we'd be interested to know what kind of engine that would be, and how the two are connected.

We'd be interested to hear from people who know more than we do about milling!
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: Millers and Millwrights
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 12 July 20 11:58 BST (UK) »
Millwright: The term originated in corn mills, etc., where water power was used, when the tasks of fitting, erecting, gear-cutting, etc., both in wood and metal, were performed by a millwright.
 Miller:  I. A person who grinds corn, and related uses.
 1. A person whose trade is the grinding of corn in a mill; the proprietor or tenant of a corn-mill. Also, a person in a mill who has charge of the actual grinding.

Stan
Mapstone, Mapston.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Milliepede

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Re: Millers and Millwrights
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 12 July 20 11:59 BST (UK) »
No expert but from searching for "millwright" it describes it as a skilled craftsman who maintains, repairs machinery whereas an actual miller would be the person milling the flour.
Hinchliffe Huddersfield Wiltshire


Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Millers and Millwrights
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 12 July 20 12:52 BST (UK) »
Thank you both for your interest and help with this.   We are wondering why there was a millwright living at the Mill between 1815 and 1851.  Is it likely that he would be doing the milling?  Or would he be doing the technical stuff building and/or repairing this and other mills? Incidentally, the mill was owned by the Ashburnham Estate, the mill was leased to someone who then let it to whoever was running it at the time.   

We're going to be writing the history of the mill, including the history of the families who lived there, and we don't want to portray this chap incorrectly, hence the need to get our heads round exactly what millwrights do, as opposed to millers.

The mill in question is a water-mill with an overshot wheel; there is a suspicion that the original mill was a short way further upstream with an undershot wheel, but that's another matter altogether.  It was originally a fulling-mill but was later converted - we know not when - to grind corn instead.
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline youngtug

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.http://www.rootschat.com/links/05q2/   
  WILSON;-Wiltshire.
 SOUL;-Gloucestershire.
 SANSUM;-Berkshire-Wiltshire
 BASSON-BASTON;- Berkshire,- Oxfordshire.
 BRIDGES;- Wiltshire.
 DOWDESWELL;-Wiltshire,Gloucestershire
 JORDAN;- Berkshire.
 COX;- Berkshire.
 GOUDY;- Suffolk.
 CHATFIELD;-Sussex-- London
 MORGAN;-Blaenavon-Abersychan
 FISHER;- Berkshire.
 BLOMFIELD-BLOOMFIELD-BLUMFIELD;-Suffolk.
DOVE. Essex-London
YOUNG-Berkshire
ARDEN.
PINEGAR-COLLIER-HUGHES-JEFFERIES-HUNT-MOSS-FRY

Offline youngtug

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Re: Millers and Millwrights
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 12 July 20 14:23 BST (UK) »
.http://www.rootschat.com/links/05q2/   
  WILSON;-Wiltshire.
 SOUL;-Gloucestershire.
 SANSUM;-Berkshire-Wiltshire
 BASSON-BASTON;- Berkshire,- Oxfordshire.
 BRIDGES;- Wiltshire.
 DOWDESWELL;-Wiltshire,Gloucestershire
 JORDAN;- Berkshire.
 COX;- Berkshire.
 GOUDY;- Suffolk.
 CHATFIELD;-Sussex-- London
 MORGAN;-Blaenavon-Abersychan
 FISHER;- Berkshire.
 BLOMFIELD-BLOOMFIELD-BLUMFIELD;-Suffolk.
DOVE. Essex-London
YOUNG-Berkshire
ARDEN.
PINEGAR-COLLIER-HUGHES-JEFFERIES-HUNT-MOSS-FRY

Online jim1

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Re: Millers and Millwrights
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 12 July 20 16:29 BST (UK) »
The trade was regarded as highly skilled so he would have undergone an apprenticeship.
Usually around the age of 12 so would have received his papers around 1802.
Unlikely to be the owner by 1815 unless he had legacy as it wouldn't have been cheap to buy.
He may also have repaired & maintained other mills in the area.
To find whether he eventually went on to own or lease it you would need his will.
Later in the century & with the arrival of the steam engine some mills converted to other uses.
Metal rolling & tube drawing being a couple, so the engine driver (& you often see the word static in brackets) ran the steam engine that rotated the wheels or stones. Grinding gypsum was another use.
So are there any metal rollers or tube drawers in the area which might indicate this has happened.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline ThrelfallYorky

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Re: Millers and Millwrights
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 12 July 20 17:59 BST (UK) »
Couldn't it be that someone with a practical bent, growing up in or around a Mill, would gain the skills either formally or informally to sort out the machinery, and hence to be a Millwright; or that someone who was a Millwright, and accustomed to dealing with machinery at various mills, might, if the opportunity occurred, take to milling as a Miller?
(I'd always taken it that a Millwright sorted the machinery out, setting things up, etc, and was quite highly skilled, and that a Miller would have managed the day-to-day work of Milling and bagging, and selling the flour?)
TY
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Online jim1

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Re: Millers and Millwrights
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 12 July 20 18:24 BST (UK) »
Trade Guilds were very protectionist & although it wasn't an offense to call oneself a tradesman
they would have made it difficult for that person to get work.
To be a member of a Guild one would first have to undertake an apprenticeship.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/