1767 Lytham Papists

[marrle]

For Maiden Stone,
Thank you so much for the information

Unfortunately St.Peters RC Records only start at 1750, especially the ones that are on line

I have Edward Bonney who married Elizabeth Crookall 1805 at St.Cuthberts, I presume Elizabeth would have been born c 1785.

Regards Margie

[clayton bradley]

My ancestors were Nicholas and Elizabeth Benson who are in the 1767 records  at Lytham Hall. I don't have any Crookall or Bonney that I know of but then I still don't know who Nicholas and Elizabeth's son, William, married (so if you have any vanishing Anns born about 1730, I'd be thrilled!). Nicholas was the dogman at the hall and appears to have been born an Anglican as I have checked all alternatives.
I looked at the accounts at Lancashire Archives which have the records for the staff DDCL447. Might that have some information for you?
Did any of your Bonneys move to the Accrington area? There are a few later at Dunkenhalgh. If any of yours were servants they moved some distances round the country. Nicholas Benson's grandson Timothy became a lodgekeeper at Cleobury Mortimer.

[marrle]

Thanks Clayton,

No Bensons that I know of will have to try and get to Preston as I know some of the bonneys worked at Lytham Hall.

My Bonneys were in Winwick, Wigan and St.Helens  but I am sure we have a connection with the ones in Lytham

Thanks for your help Margie

[Maiden Stone]

For Maiden Stone,
Thank you so much for the information

Unfortunately St.Peters RC Records only start at 1750, especially the ones that are on line

I have Edward Bonney who married Elizabeth Crookall 1805 at St.Cuthberts, I presume Elizabeth would have been born c 1785.

Regards Margie

Elizabeth Crookall was born August 1781. Birth is recorded as Betty in St. Cuthbert's baptism register.
Elizabeth was niece to my Agnes. Elizabeth was the only child of Richard, an elder brother of Agnes. Richard was aged 7 on Papists' Return. He was the second son named Richard, first one died very young. Richard married Alice Crookall on 2nd Feb. 1781 (R.C.) and again on 5th Feb.(Anglican, St. Cuthbert)*. Alice was  possibly the Alice Crookall who was aged 9 on the Return but evidence is sparse. If it was the same Alice it means Elizabeth Crookall and my 3xGGF were double-cousins.
*I've noticed that Lytham Catholics liked to cock a snook at the marriage law then in force by having their Catholic wedding ceremony first and the legal, Anglican one later. Some couples visited St. Cuthbert's for their C. of E. marriage on the morning after their wedding night, others waited longer before doing the official part. The longest interval I saw was 6 weeks.  Richard & Jane Crookall on Papists' Return had a lapse of more than a week between ceremonies. Jane married again after Richard's death, this time there was a gap of 5 weeks between the 2 wedding ceremonies.
 
An Edward Bonney was godfather to the 2 youngest children of Agnes. They were born after Edward & Elizabeth's marriage so I presume it was him.
I have a copy of Richard's will. He left almost everything to Elizabeth. There was a small amount of money to Elizabeth's eldest illegitimate son.
Births of children to Edward & Elizabeth Bonny in St. Cuthbert's baptism register were Alice (1806), "Jno" (7th Sept. 1808), Elizabeth (1810), Richard (1812). (Transcription on LANOPC)
Baptism of Edward & Elizabeth's eldest son in R.C register was James, "Jacobus" (7th Sept. 1808). (Transcription in "Lancashire Registers" published by Catholic Record Society)

There is a huge gap in Lytham R.C. mission marriage register for early decades of 19thC. There are also missing baptisms, most importantly for me, my 4xGGF Agnes (1765), some of her siblings and her grandson, John (c.1821) who trained for the priesthood at Maynooth and was vicar-general for 2 dioceses in southern England. 

 

[bevo]

You can download the 1767 book via this link (Excell, sometimes takes a while but it works )

https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2020/01/check-margaret-higgins-database-for.html

[Maiden Stone]

Thanks for that bevo.

Elizabeth Crookall's godmother was Agnes Crookall. Godfather was Thomas Crookall, probably eldest brother of Agnes.

 Elizabeth Crookall's eldest son was Thomas Crookall.
St. Cuthbert, Lytham baptism register:
Birth 26th June 1800: Thomas Crookall son of John Edmondson & Betty Crookall.
A few candidates for John Edmondson, one had died the previous October. There was an Edmondson family whose father was huntsman at Lytham Hall. Edward Bonney, Elizabeth's future husband was employed as gamekeeper by Clifton of Lytham Hall. Coincidence or did Betty prefer the outdoor type?
The baby's godfather in R.C. register was Thomas Hamson, probably son of James Ham(p)son & Mary (nee Crookall). Richard Crookall (the butcher & innkeeper one from Papists' Return) had been godfather to 2 children of James & Mary Hampson.
Richard Crookall (7 years old on Papists' Return) and father of Elizabeth, paid for education and apprenticeship of his eldest grandson, Thomas Crookall.
 Richard Crookall and John Crookall were born only 1 month apart, both turning 8 in 1767. Richard was a year younger on the Papists' Return. The list may have been compiled between their birthdays. Agnes was 2 in November 1767. A curate in another Lancashire parish put ages in years and months when he compiled the Return.

A witness at wedding of Edward Bonny & Elizabeth Crookall was another Edward Bonny. Possibly a cousin?
There were a few Edward Bonny births in St. Cuthbert's registers.
Birth 1776 Edward son of Robert
Birth 1777 Edward son of James the Younger
Birth 1778 Edward son of James
A burial 1777 Edward son of James
and a much later burial 1807 Edward aged 30, son of Robert & Grace.

The Catholic baptism register shows:
1776 Edward - parents Robert & Grace 
1777 Edward - parents James & Elizabeth, godparents were Swarbreck, Richard & Ann
1778 Edward - parents James & Elizabeth, godfather Richard Swarbreck

Marriages at St. Cuthbert, transcriptions on LANOPC:
19th Feb. 1770 James Bonny & Elizabeth Eaton, Witnesses: C.L.L.?, Richard Malley, by licence. (Might 1st witness have been Crookall?)
24th Jan 1774 there were 2 Bonney weddings:
John Bonney of Lytham & Elizabeth Swarbreck of Kirkham, witnesses Wm. Walker & John Simpson
Robert Bonney & Grace Malley, both of Lytham. Witnesses Richard Malley, John Simpson.
(Robert & Grace had a Catholic ceremony the previous day)
Another Malley- Bonney marriage was Richard Malley & Mary Bonney, witness Grace Malley. (I didn't note date.)
Malley and Crookall families were connected further back. Grace Crookall married a Malley.

Was there a connection to the Bonny blacksmiths of Lytham, one of whom allegedly lived to the age of 102? 

*** P.S.  Sorry for length of post. I daren't leave in case I can't get back in. When trying to access the site today I've been getting a message: "Your connection is not secure. .... The connection used to load this site ISTLS 1.0 or TLL 1.1 which are outdated and will be turned off in future. When these are turned off you won't be able to load the site. The server should use TLS 1.2 or later."
There's a red warning sign & message at the top of this page in red type "Not secure" and https is in red and is scored through. ****
I know other people have had problems. When I tried to go from this thread to the forum to look for the other complaints I just got the same warning message. It seems I can access only replies to threads I've already replied to.
Will someone please report my post to a moderator and ask to have the P.S. part of it moved to the technical board or explain what I should do? as far as I know I can't report my own post.  Thanks. 

[Maiden Stone]

No Bensons that I know of will have to try and get to Preston as I know some of the bonneys worked at Lytham Hall.

One of them is on Papists' Return with other staff at the hall.
James Bonny age 23, waiting man, born in parish.
He's immediately after John Lawrenson, groom of hunters.

[Maiden Stone]

My Bonneys were in Winwick, Wigan and St.Helens  but I am sure we have a connection with the ones in Lytham

Here's one Lytham Bonny with a St. Helens connection although she didn't need to leave Lytham to make it.
Quarter Sessions Petitions Preston Michaelmas 1809
Lytham. Order of filiation & maintenance of Betty, bastard child of Thomas Shepherd of St. Helens, coach-driver, and Peggy Bonny singlewoman. (Lancashire Archives)
(The Crookall's hotel was a coaching-inn. The other big hotel, Clifton Arms, was situated opposite. Convenient haylofts for amorous coachmen.)
A witness to wedding of Edward Bonny & Betty Crookall was a Peggy Bonny.

Marriage bond for Edward Bonny & Elizabeth Crookall is at Lancs. Archives. Both aged 24 according to the bond.
There's a will of James Bonney, gamekeeper, Lytham 1824.

[marrle]

Maiden Stone,

Thank you so much for all the information you have sent me just sent you pm

Regards Margie