Author Topic: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?  (Read 3585 times)

Offline LaytonLily

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #72 on: Thursday 23 July 20 15:10 BST (UK) »
MaxD  -  What was the military career of James Arthur Fisher / James Arthur Annesley Fisher ?

I am thinking he joined the regular army in 1913 ?    Prior to the start of WW1.   
First he was in the 3rd Dragoon Guards (Warwickshire ?), transferred to 6th Dragoon Guards.

Then what ?   

Records to show where he fought overseas ?     

Was he still in regular army during WW1 ?

When he relinquished his commission in 1919 he was able to still use the title Captain ?

Records to show the damage to his health received while on active service ?

When he married in 1915 he gave his occupation as Captain in Royal Warwickshire.  When his wife divorced him in 1921 one of the reasons was that he had deceived her about his army position.
So what do you think that deception was if he was a Captain ?   (I must see if I can get the divorce papers !)
ASTON, Birmingham : TWIST, B.ham: HUNT, B.ham: LAYTON, Worcestershire: LAYTON, B.ham: BISHOP, Leic.: TYSALL, B.ham: BURLEY,B.ham: SCOTT,B.ham: FISHER, B.ham : PRICHARD,Wales: BEARD,Worc. : SCHREDER, USA

Online ShaunJ

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #73 on: Thursday 23 July 20 15:30 BST (UK) »
Did you find the TNA catalogue entry for the divorce papers? https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8025778
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Offline LaytonLily

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #74 on: Thursday 23 July 20 15:40 BST (UK) »
It says it has not been digitised so cannot be downloaded and can only be viewed by going into Kew - which is not going to be possible  for me !
ASTON, Birmingham : TWIST, B.ham: HUNT, B.ham: LAYTON, Worcestershire: LAYTON, B.ham: BISHOP, Leic.: TYSALL, B.ham: BURLEY,B.ham: SCOTT,B.ham: FISHER, B.ham : PRICHARD,Wales: BEARD,Worc. : SCHREDER, USA

Online ShaunJ

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #75 on: Thursday 23 July 20 15:49 BST (UK) »
You could post a request for anyone going to TNA to take a look at the divorce papers for you (they would need to order in advance). In normal times you could request a quote for a copy to be sent to you but that link doesn't seem to work at the moment.
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Offline LaytonLily

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #76 on: Thursday 23 July 20 19:10 BST (UK) »
Seems rather an imposition to ask someone to do that, at this time anyway.     Once we are back normal (!) I might ask how much to obtain a copy from NA.
ASTON, Birmingham : TWIST, B.ham: HUNT, B.ham: LAYTON, Worcestershire: LAYTON, B.ham: BISHOP, Leic.: TYSALL, B.ham: BURLEY,B.ham: SCOTT,B.ham: FISHER, B.ham : PRICHARD,Wales: BEARD,Worc. : SCHREDER, USA

Offline MaxD

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #77 on: Thursday 23 July 20 20:43 BST (UK) »
You already have almost all of the answers to your queries already but a review never hurts and I’ve been able to add a couple of things.

I am thinking he joined the regular army in 1913 ?    Prior to the start of WW1.   
First he was in the 3rd Dragoon Guards (Warwickshire ?), transferred to 6th Dragoon Guards.


Discharge cert dated 27 July 1914, records discharge by purchase from 6th Dragoon Guards for 8316 James Arthur Fisher, age given as 22 years 4 months (on discharge).  Had elected in Sep 1913 , giving his age as 21 yrs 6 months, to serve with 3rd Dragoons stating previous service with Worcestershire Yeomanry, purchased discharge in May 1913 (WY was a territorial unit not regular army).  The units shown on the record are the Western Cavalry Depot (where he would have trained) followed by 6th Dragoon Guards in Dec 1913.  Not unusual for a man to not join the one he enlisted for.  The Western Cavalry Depot was at Newport and trained men for a number of cavalry regiments including 3rd and 6th Dragoon Guards. Should be understood that he began at the Cavalry Depot as a member of 3rd DG but he was not stationed with them, he was being trained, similarly he was still at the Depot when he transferred regiments, he didn’t get to 3rd DG at all or to the 6th DG at Canterbury until Dec 1913.  His service in the WY is attested to by the Commanding Officer of the WY (one of 3 referees).  His transfer from 3rd to 6th DG is documented as taking place on 14 Oct 1913 while at the Cavalry Depot.  He served only in UK.
This record appears totally straightforward.

Records to show where he fought overseas ?     

Was he still in regular army during WW1 ?

Commissioning in Oct 1914 suggest he joined to become an officer almost from the outset, his medal record only has his officer rank.
Overseas service in the Great War is covered on the medal card(s) in the two names, treated as one by the award roll, recording the British War and Victory medals for which he had to serve overseas in a war theatre..   There should be a set of papers comprising his officer file at the National Archives but no sign.  There are London Gazette entries for what would be his commissioning in the Warwickshire Regiment as 2/Lt in Oct 1914 (to 14th Battalion R Warwickshires), his promotion to Capt in Mar 1916 (I probably missed the intervening promotion to Lt) and relinquishing his commission in Sept 1919.

The RAF record has him as Captain in 11 Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment.  He had been assessed as fit for pilot training on 26 Nov 1917. He was not in the RAF,  he was trying to get in but didn’t and went back to the Warwickshires after 8 months.
The Royal Flying Corps database that you have seen leads to the RAF record already seen.  Its title is misleading in that he wasn’t in the RFC but, as said, still in the Warwickshires.
Finding his service before he went overseas on 3 July 1917 would be a task too far and names even of officers are thin on the ground.  However, the war diary of 11 Battalion mentions him on 27 July 1917 taking over command of B Company in France.

When he relinquished his commission in 1919 he was able to still use the title Captain ?
Yes, that is documented in the 1919 LG entry.

Records to show the damage to his health received while on active service ?
There is a pension record already mentioned in the name of James Arthur Annesley Fisher but it is on Fold 3 on Ancestry, I do not have access – this could be the father??  Otherwise none.

When he married in 1915 he gave his occupation as Captain in Royal Warwickshire.  When his wife divorced him in 1921 one of the reasons was that he had deceived her about his army position.
So what do you think that deception was if he was a Captain ?   (I must see if I can get the divorce papers !)

He wasn’t promoted Captain until March 1916.  However, in the London Gazette entry he is shown as (late Temporary Captain) which suggest he may well have been carrying that rank in 1915.  I can’t find an entry in 1915 for him.

Overall, I find nothing out of the ordinary about his military service to the end of the Great War.  His discharge cert from the cavalry describes him as a man of superior education and manners which might explain his ability to make up stories!

MaxD

I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline LaytonLily

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #78 on: Thursday 23 July 20 22:10 BST (UK) »
Well thank you MaxD, that is excellent !   Just what I needed, all explained clearly (for someone who has no military knowledge) and all typed out, so I do not need to do it !   I am very grateful to you for taking the trouble to provide so much information and answering my questions so thoroughly.

But, when you say : 'His discharge cert from the cavalry describes him as a man of superior education and manners . . . . ' where is this document, I need to know, to see it for myself !    Somehow it seems a compensation for what was to come after in his life.   
ASTON, Birmingham : TWIST, B.ham: HUNT, B.ham: LAYTON, Worcestershire: LAYTON, B.ham: BISHOP, Leic.: TYSALL, B.ham: BURLEY,B.ham: SCOTT,B.ham: FISHER, B.ham : PRICHARD,Wales: BEARD,Worc. : SCHREDER, USA

Online ShaunJ

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #79 on: Friday 24 July 20 05:39 BST (UK) »
Death in Devon, 1965
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Online mckha489

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Re: James Arthur Fisher - Was he a Captain or not ?
« Reply #80 on: Friday 24 July 20 05:45 BST (UK) »
Well found Shaun, that was dedication! 

What a shame there is no will. It would have been fun to see what he said about himself.