Jervie Family Tree, Newhaven

[gilliantelfer]

Hello,

this is my first post on rootschat, so please be kind 
I've been researching my family tree and have hit a bit of wall with one particular line, relating to the Jervie family line from North Leith/Newhaven. 
One of my relations was Eliza Jervie who lived at Citadel Street, Leith for most of her life (born 1831 and died 1897). 
She was married to  John Patterson (born 1817) who was a watchman and died on the Steamer "Marmion" at the old Leith Docks in June 1887 . 
I've managed to find records for her father George Jervie, but from that point back not getting much more info for either the Pattersons or Jervie. 
If anyone has any info and potentially links to Clarks or Carnie I'd be most grateful. 
They were all mariners of some sort, either working in the Merchant Navy or fishermen so would love to be directed to any history of the fishermen at that time.

Thank you.

Gillian

[Forfarian]

Hello Gillian, and welcome to RootsChat.

First of all, are you using www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk? If not, see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0

SP has a baptism record of Eliza Jarvie, daughter of George Jarvie and Margaret Clark, in 1823 not 1831. They also had James 1818, Philip 1821, and Margaret Paterson in 1827. Philip is an unusual given name, so it seems to imply that George Jervie could be the son of Philip Jervie and Jane Carnie, baptised in 1787.

In the 1841 census Philip Jervie, 19, is a seaman on the 'Tigris' of Leith, and Elizth Jervie, 16, is a servant in the household of Robert Carnie, fisherman. George, 50; Margaret, 45 and William Jervies, 13, are listed at Citadel Street, Leith.

In 1851 George Jarvie, 62, wife Margaret, 54 and daughter Jean, 38, are in Maitland Place, Leith and James Jervie, 32, fisherman, is in Parliament Square, Leith wife wife Isabella, daughter Isabella and two visitors, Margaret and Helen Goldie.

Neither George nor Margaret Sr is listed in Midlothian in the 1861 census (transcription). However unless they moved away from Midlothian I don't see a death of either after 1855.

I see that you already mention all these surnames, so it may be that you already have this information. If so, please tell us everything else you know about them to avoid anyone duplicating what you have already done.

[gilliantelfer]

Hello,

Thank you very much for your quick reply!  I have been using Scotlands People, I prefer to use this as I would prefer to use proper records rather than Ancestry, which seems to have a few wildcards in their records.  I did not have all the children of George Jarvie and Margaret, thank you. I am trying to ascertain whether George married twice - there is the record of the marriage between George and Margaret Clark in 1817, but also a record of a marriage between George Jervie and Margaret Paterson in 1835.  Margaret Paterson is called a "relict" of John Paterson (widow?).  Eliza was a also a widow of a John Patterson, so I was wondering if Eliza's father (George) married her late husband's mother (Margaret Paterson)?  There is a death certificate for a George Jarvie in 1867 and two Margarets are listed. I have not been able to find any other records for the parents listed on his birth certificate (Philip Jervie and Jane(t?) Carnie in Edinburgh or elsewhere in Scotland.

Best wishes,

Gillian

[Forfarian]

Hello,

Thank you very much for your quick reply!  I have been using Scotlands People, I prefer to use this as I would prefer to use proper records rather than Ancestry, which seems to have a few wildcards in their records. 

Good.

I did not have all the children of George Jarvie and Margaret, thank you.

Not sure this is all of them - I didn't find a baptism of Jean, who would have been born in 1812/1813 if her age in the 1871 census is accurate. There's quite a gap between 1812 and 1818, so perhaps there are other children missing from the records.

I am trying to ascertain whether George married twice - there is the record of the marriage between George and Margaret Clark in 1817, but also a record of a marriage between George Jervie and Margaret Paterson in 1835.  Margaret Paterson is called a "relict" of John Paterson (widow?).  Eliza was a also a widow of a John Patterson, so I was wondering if Eliza's father (George) married her late husband's mother (Margaret Paterson)?  There is a death certificate for a George Jarvie in 1867 and two Margarets are listed.

Yes, a relict is a widow.

I noticed that marriage and also wondered if it was a second marriage for George. Does his death certificate not give you the surnames of the two Margarets? (I didn't find it because I only looked at 1855 to 1861 - should have known better!) Who registered his death?

I have not been able to find any other records for the parents listed on his birth certificate (Philip Jervie and Jane(t?) Carnie in Edinburgh or elsewhere in Scotland.

They had six recorded children, with three different spellings of the surname.
Anne Jarvice, baptised 4 April 1779
Philip Jarvie, 26 June 1782
Philip Jarvie, 18 September 1785
George Jervie, 27 July 1787
James Jervie, 3 July 1789
Margaret Jervie, 2 August 1792

[gilliantelfer]

Fantastic - thank you for that additional info!

The death certificate of George is not entirely clear (for me anyhow!), whether its saying there are two Margarets or one Margaret with two former names.  Apologies if this is a newbie mistake, still getting used to reading certificates and dealing with name variants :-)

Thanks again,
Gillian

[Forfarian]

I read it as widower of Margaret Paterson, formerly of Margaret Clark. The informant is George's son Philip, so that looks like solid confirmation of his parentage and the two marriages.

It's an unusual way of naming the wives. Usually it would say 'widower of (1) Margaret Clark (2) Margaret Paterson'. If it had been Margaret Paterson who was previously Margaret Clark it would have said 'widower of Margaret Clark or Paterson'.

(Italics and underlining are mine, for emphasis. They wouldn't appear in an original document.)

[gilliantelfer]

Thank you for confirming, this is very helpful!

Best wishes,

Gillian##

[Forfarian]

a record of a marriage between George Jervie and Margaret Paterson in 1835.  Margaret Paterson is called a "relict" of John Paterson (widow?).  Eliza was a also a widow of a John Patterson, so I was wondering if Eliza's father (George) married her late husband's mother (Margaret Paterson)?

I was thinking about this. if she is named in her second marriage certificate as 'Margaret Paterson, relict of John  Paterson' and in her second husband's death certificate as Margaret Paterson, both mean that Paterson is her own maiden surname.

John Paterson, son of John Paterson and Margaret Paterson, was baptised in South Leith on 19 February 1815. Are these the parents named on John's death certificate in 1887?

I see that George J and Margaret Clark named a child Margaret Paterson in 1835, so there must have been a Margaret Paterson who was important to them long before their daughter married John Paterson.

Have you got all the census listings of John and Eliza and family?

[gilliantelfer]

Hello,
You are absolutely correct.  John Patterson's death certificate shows both the married and maiden surname of his mother Margaret as being Patterson.

I haven't been able to locate a Margaret Paterson born in 1835, but as there is a record of a George marrying a Margaret Paterson, I assumed this could be a second marriage.  I can't however find a death certificate for Margaret Jarvie (nee Clark).

I'll keep looking through Census records :-)

Gillian