Author Topic: Please can someone help me get my head around this?  (Read 1079 times)

Offline Annie65115

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Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« on: Wednesday 22 July 20 18:59 BST (UK) »
I can't quite grasp this for some reason and don't want to make a crashing error so if anyone can point anything out, I'd be grateful!

Catherine Holyland b 1775 in Kent, had at least 2 siblings - Sophia (b 1779) and Barbara (b 1782). Catherine married Noah Nichols in London in 1804; they had a daughter called Catherine Sophia Nichols. I haven't got a death for Catherine.

However, Noah Nichols (I'm presuming the same man?) then married Sophia Holyland in 1828 (London). So I was presuming (again) that he married his sister in law.

Noah died in 1837 - his will names his wife Sophia. In 1841, Sophia was "independent" and living in Southwark; with her is Henry Holyland, age 28, a carman, not born in county. Sophia lived for some time afterwards in an asylum run by the victuallers association (Noah was an innkeeper) and her pob in 1851 was given as Erith, Kent, yob around 1779.

I think Henry must be the Henry Holyland who was bapt in St George in the East in 1814, the son of William (carman) and ----- Sophia.

So that would make Noah's second wife Sophia, the widow of William rather than the sister of Catherine, wouldn't it? Of course I can't find any marriage for William and Sophia, nor confirm a death for William. And I don't know if William and Catherine may have been related. And I have no idea what became of Catherine's sister Sophia if it wasn't her who married Noah. It's just something of a coincidence to marry 2 women of the same age with the same fairly unusual surname if they're not already related!

Can anyone spot anything here I've missed? Or any other lines of enquiry I could follow to try to untangle this?



Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline Liam59

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Re: Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 22 July 20 21:57 BST (UK) »
Where cousins married each other they'd sometimes have the same surname before and after marriage so if William was a cousin, Sophia could be sister to Catherine and also mother of Henry, having married William before she married Noah?
I've also come across first names being used in families a lot so have seen first cousins of very similar ages with the same first and last names so I suppose there could have been two Sophia Holylands?

Offline jbml

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Re: Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 30 August 20 23:49 BST (UK) »
I don't think we can  make any assumptions about Noah's second wife Sophia.

The 1841 census doesn't tell us that Henry Holyland was the son of the Sophia he was living with at that time.

It usually helps to put things in chronological order.

1775: Catherine Holyland born
1779: Sophia Holyland, sister of Catherine, born
1782: Barbara Holyland, sister of Catherine and Sophia, born
1804: Catherine Holyland marries Noah Nicholls, becoming Catherine Nicholls
date uncertain: Catherine Sophia Nicholls, daughter of Noah and Catherine, born
1814: Henry Holyland, son of William and Sophia, born. [QUESTION: Who is William?]
1828: Noah Nicholls marries Sophia Holyland [QUESTION: which Sophia Holyland?]
1837: Noah Nicholls dies, naming Sophia as his wife in his will
1841: Henry Holyland is seen in the census, living  in the same household as a Sophia Nicholls [QUESTION: how old is Sophia said to be in  this census?]

I think my first line of enquiry would be to look at the evidence for the 1828 marriage. Is the Sophia Holyland who married Noah Nicholls in 1828 described as a spinster (in which case we're probably looking at the sister of Catherine and Barbara) or a widow (in which case we're probably looking at the mother of Henry Holyland)?

And I think my second line of enquiry would be to take a close look at the will of Noah Nicholls for any mention of Henry. If Noah had married Henry's mother, then Henry probably lived in the same household for a few years (although he would have been 14 in 1828, so it is possible that he was apprenticed out and didn't live with his new stepfather). I would expect at least a small token legacy to appear in the will to his stepson of 9 years ... if there is no such legacy then it tends to suggest that Henry was not his stepson. Further, in 1837, Henry was 23 years of age. If he was the stepson then (unless there's something we don't know about him ... which well there might be) he would appear to be a natural choice as executor for the will. If he's not an executor then, again, this tends to hint against his being the stepson.

My third line of enquiry would be to ask on what date in 1837 Noah Nicholls died. If it was on or after 1 July 1837 then his death OUGHT to have been registered (one of the very first). That's not to say it was ... but it ought to have been. If it was, then have a look at the death certificate and see who the informant was. Again, if Henry Holyland was his stepson, then there's a fair chance he would have been the informant ("don't you fret, mother ... I'll deal with all the paperwork ... you just have a good old cry and a cup of tea"). Once again, if he is not the informant then this does not mean that he is not the stepson; but if he IS the informant then he probably IS the stepson.


The trick in these situations is always to examine, separately, the two competing hypotheses and ask yourself "if THIS was what happened, what unique evidence would I expect to find which wouldn't be there if the other was what happened?" ... and then go out and look for it to see if it's there. (But always remembering the age old adage that absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence ... )
All identified names up to and including my great x5 grandparents: Abbot Andrews Baker Blenc(h)ow Brothers Burrows Chambers Clifton Cornwell Escott Fisher Foster Frost Giddins Groom Hardwick Harris Hart Hayho(e) Herman Holcomb(e) Holmes Hurley King-Spooner Martindale Mason Mitchell Murphy Neves Oakey Packman Palmer Peabody Pearce Pettit(t) Piper Pottenger Pound Purkis Rackliff(e) Richardson Scotford Sherman Sinden Snear Southam Spooner Stephenson Varing Weatherley Webb Whitney Wiles Wright


Offline Kay99

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Re: Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 31 August 20 05:17 BST (UK) »
There is this possible death for Noah on the GRO

NOAH NICHOLLS Age    56 
GRO Ref 1837  Sept Qrtr  CROYDON  Vol 04  Page 55

Also Henry Holyland married Eliza Bunn Widow 10 Nov 1856 Christchurch, Bermondsey   Henry is listed as a Carman with father William Holyland (decd) Carman   The marriage cert is online on Anc

Kay

Offline jbml

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Re: Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 31 August 20 08:44 BST (UK) »
I ought, perhaps, to add that Noah's second wife OUGHTN'T to be Catherine and Barbara's sister, since the canonical impediment to marrying your deceased wife's sister was not lifted in English law until the early 20th century.

However, just because something SHOULDN'T have happened, that don't necessarily mean that it DIDN'T.
All identified names up to and including my great x5 grandparents: Abbot Andrews Baker Blenc(h)ow Brothers Burrows Chambers Clifton Cornwell Escott Fisher Foster Frost Giddins Groom Hardwick Harris Hart Hayho(e) Herman Holcomb(e) Holmes Hurley King-Spooner Martindale Mason Mitchell Murphy Neves Oakey Packman Palmer Peabody Pearce Pettit(t) Piper Pottenger Pound Purkis Rackliff(e) Richardson Scotford Sherman Sinden Snear Southam Spooner Stephenson Varing Weatherley Webb Whitney Wiles Wright

Offline cuffie81

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Re: Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 31 August 20 11:54 BST (UK) »
No doubt Annie, and others, already have some of the records and references below but I've included them just to make it easier for us all.

A newspaper announcement for Noah's likely death, on 28th Sep, does tie in with the GRO reference given by Kay.

Parish register records:
Marriage
married: 29 Jul 1804; Christ Church, City of London
groom: Noah Nichols; of St Marylebone; bach
bride: Catherine Holyland; of Christ Church; spin
witnesses: Joseph Armsby?, E Holyland

Marriage:
married: 23 Sep 1828; St John the Baptist, Middlesex
groom: Noah Nicholls
bride: Sophia Holyland

I can't find an original image for the 1828 marriage only transcripts which give only basic information. There is also a marriage license but again only a transcript (Dioceses of Canterbury) which gives very little detail. The marriage announcement in the newspaper (see below) suggest Sophia was unmarried.


Burials - St Mary le Strand, Westminster
09 Jun 1822: Catherine Nicholls; age 10 yrs 8 mths; Savoy Tavern
11 May 1823: Catherine Nicholls; age 47 [born c1776]; Savoy

Burials - St Luke, Finsbury, Islington
05 Oct 1837: Noah Nicholls; age 57 [born c1780]; From Norwood


Censuses:
1841 Thornton Grove, St Saviour, Southwark
Sophia Nichols and Henry Holyland
Ref HO107; Piece 1088; Book 8; Folio 46; Page 20
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQKQ-5W3

1851 Asylum Terrace, Saint Giles, Camberwell
Sophia Nichols
Ref HO107; Piece 1581; Folio 138; Page 29
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKS-MJS

1861 Asylum Road Old Kent Road Licensed Victuallers, Camberwell
Sophia Nichols, born London, Middlesex
[Transcribed as Sarah Machol in some records]
Ref RG09; Piece 385; Folio 53; Page 5
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2MG-F1FK

Is this the same Sophia? It looks about right but the birth place differs.

Possible GRO references:
1870 Q4 Death: Sophia Nichols ; age 91 (born c1779); Camberwell; vol 01D; page 445


Newspaper items:

Sun (London)
30 Jul 1804
Married
Yesterday, at Christchurch, Mr Noah Nicholls, of Redcross-street, to Miss Holyland, of Newgate-street.

Oxford Journal
04 Aug 1804
Married
At Christchurch, Mr Noah Nicholls, of Red Cross Street, to Miss Holyland, of Newgate Street.

Sun (London)
23 Oct 1828
Married
Lately, Mr Nicholls, of the Savoy Palace, Savoy-street, Strand, to Miss Holyland

Morning Chronicle
24 Oct 1828
Married
Lately, Mr Nicholls, of the Savoy Palace, Savoy-street, Strand, to Miss Holyland

Morning Advertiser
30 Sep 1837
Died
On the 28th instant, at his residence, the Woodman, Norwood, Surrey, Mr Noah Nicholls, regretted by numerous a acquaintance. - He has been for many years a Subscriber to the Licensed Victualler's School, and to the Asylum.


Various other newspaper references for Noah:

Morning Advertiser
29 Jan 1822
- Mr Noah Nichols
- late of the Rose and Crown, London House Yard, St Paul's
- now of Savoy Palace, Savoy Hill, Strand
- greatly annoyed by drunken fellows crying about printed paper
- and occasionally collecting before his house
- under pretence that it is occupied by an individual whose name has recently been before the public.
- 'a great shame' that a respectable man, of unimpeachable character, should be thus annoyed

London Courier and Evening Gazette
20 Dec 1825
Coroner's Inquest
- Inquest on Friday night at house of
- Mr Noah Nicholls, the sign of the Savoy Palace, Savoy Street
- on body of a Emma Nash
- found in the river near Waterloo-bridge

The Atlas
03 Sep 1826
Appeal To The Public
From The Letter-Press Printers Of The Metropolis
Donations and subscriptions received:
...
Mr Nicholls, Savoy Palace: 1 0s 0d
...

Sun (London)
19 Feb 1827
Letter Press Printing
- concert and ball to take place
- on 20th Feb 1827
- in aid of fund for relief of unemployed compositors
- tickets available from various persons, incl. Mr Nicholls, Savoy Palace, Strand

Morning Advertiser
03 Apr 1827
Licensed Victuallers' Asylum
Donations received in last publication:
Licensed Victuallers:
...
Nicholls, Noah, Savoy Palace, Strand 2 2s
...

London Courier and Evening Gazette
24 Apr 1827
Police
Guildhall
- Mr Hillman
- trunk maker
- of Noble street, Falcon Square
- charged with having purchased a hare on 24th Feb
- Witness:
- Mr Noah Nicholls, licensed victualler, at Savoy Palace

Public Ledger and Daily Advertiser
16 Aug 1828
The Savoy Palace
Bow Street
- Mr Nicholls
- landlord of the Savoy Palace, Savoy-street, Strand
- appeared on information against him of having his house open beyond limited hour
- Nicholls anxious to meet charge and rebut testimony
- information against Nicholls given by John Waters/Walters [name differs in item]
- Waters' information originated in charge against 3 men of assaulting him at the Savoy Palace
- other witnesses gave statements contrary to Waters'
- witnesses included Mitchell, Thames Police commander,
- who stated he had frequented Savoy Palace for last 5 years
- information against Nicholls dismissed
[long item]


EDIT: Added burial record for Noah
Anderson Banks Beard Brewer Caves Clarke Clinch Cooling Cuff Denton Gamble Gibson Gunn Hunt Mills Muncey Norris Notzke Reid Robinson Searle Smith Trundle Turner Weedon Wells Wilson

Offline cuffie81

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Re: Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 31 August 20 12:27 BST (UK) »
Additional newspaper references for a Noah Nicholls:

Morning Advertiser
27 Jun 1829
Licensed Victuallers' School
Kennington Lane, Lambeth
Subscriptions in aid of the school:
Mr Noah Nicholls, Rising Sun, Brooksby-street, Liverpool-road, Islington: 1 s1 0d

Morning Advertiser
25 Jun 1831
Licensed Victuallers' School
Kennington Lane, Lambeth
Subscriptions received:
Mr Noah Nicholls, Rising Sun, Brooksby-street, Liverpool-road, Islington: 1 s1 0d

Morning Advertiser
25 Aug 1832
Licensed Victuallers' School
Kennington Lane, Lambeth
Subscriptions received:
Mr Noah Nicholls, Rising Sun, Brooksby-street, Islington: 1 s1 0d

Morning Advertiser
01 Jul 1833
Licensed Victuallers' School
Kennington Lane, Lambeth
Subscriptions received:
Mr Nicholls, Rising Sun, Brooksby-street, Islington: 1 s1 0d

Morning Advertiser
28 Jun 1834
Licensed Victuallers' School
Kennington Lane, Lambeth
Subscriptions received:
Mr Nicholls, Rising Sun, Brooksby-street, Liverpool-road, Islington: 1 s1 0d
Anderson Banks Beard Brewer Caves Clarke Clinch Cooling Cuff Denton Gamble Gibson Gunn Hunt Mills Muncey Norris Notzke Reid Robinson Searle Smith Trundle Turner Weedon Wells Wilson

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 31 August 20 14:02 BST (UK) »
Noah's will mentions two grandchildren - son and daughter of his deceased daughter Mary and Thomas Sherrin. There is a Mary baptised in 1811 at the same time as Catherine Nicholls but born in 1805.

Can only find the three Holyland sisters, baptised to Fulcher and Barbara Holyland. Would be nice if they had a brother William, who married Sophia something, but not finding anything that matches that. Could Henry be Sophia's illeg son and father William was invented?. Henry wasn't baptised until he was almost 3 which seems a bit unusual.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate

Offline LizzieL

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Re: Please can someone help me get my head around this?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 31 August 20 14:18 BST (UK) »
Mary Nicholls married Thomas Sherrin 20 Nov 1823 at St George Bloomsbury. Witnesses Noah Nicholls and Eliza Thompson.
Berks / Oxon: Eltham, Annetts, Wiltshire (surname not county), Hawkins, Pembroke, Partridge
Dorset / Hants: Derham, Stride, Purkiss, Scott, Sibley
Yorkshire: Pottage, Carr, Blackburn, Depledge
Sussex: Goodyer, Christopher, Trevatt
Jersey: Fowler, Huelin, Scott
Essex/Herts: Livermore, Holgate, Law, Day, Myson, Boyton
Norfolk/Suffolk: Stone, Alexander, Tipple, Ingate