Gertrude & Thomas COOK

[garlands]

I posted a reply some 20 minutes ago, but it seems to have vanished.

1. My source for all this information is a Confidential Report prepared by The Children's Society

2. As Thomas COOK was in the RN, his son could very well been born in Campbeltown in 1942. I have some left-over credits with ScotlandsPeople which might come in handy, now

George

[Annette7]

Maybe she actually was Downer rather than Downes?
Birth
DOWNER, ELEANOR  MARY     
Mother's Maiden Surname: ANDERSON 
GRO Reference: 1907  J Quarter in EDMONTON  Volume 03A  Page 717

Henry John Downer and Ellen Downer lived in Primrose Avenue.
They married 1895

A possible Walter, but rather younger than Eleanor
COOK, WALTER  JOHN THOMAS    
Mother's Maiden Surname: TAYLOR 
GRO Reference: 1914  M Quarter in WILLITON  Volume 05C  Page 403

You are spot on, jonw65.

In 1939 index Eleanor M. Cook (wife of Walter John Thomas Cook) is in the district where Walter was born so clearly the right Walter J T and Eleanor M have been identified.

Is 'Thomas' actually Walter John Thomas I wonder (known as Thomas like his father)?  It certainly looks like the J R born 1942 was the son of this couple (possibly born in Scotland) as with them on electoral roll) BUT if that is so who the heck is Gertrude?   The only female at 25 Primrose Avenue i1960 is Doris Gertrude Hearne.   (Not possible to get the birth certificate of the J R born 1942 Campbeltown at the present time - not able to view with credits, garlands, alas).

I can't see a Walter J T Cook in 1939 index - is this because he is away with Royal Navy?   I guess only the marriage certificate of Walter and Eleanor 1938 could confirm if he was indeed in the navy.
If this is so, and WJT is 'Thomas' it brings us back to who was Gertrude?

Annette




 

[garlands]

If W J Thomas COOK is 'my' man, how do we square the birth date discrepancy?

W J T COOK was born in Williton in 1914

Thomas COOK claimed in 1960 to be 50 years old, as did Gertrude

George

[jonw65]

Excellent summary, Annette.

George,
Attempting to confirm Walter J T is the one born in 1914, there is this death in 2010 on the GRO website.
COOK, WALTER  JOHN THOMAS    
Year of Birth: 1914 
GRO Reference:  DOR  Q1/2010 in Enfield  (2271A)  Reg 1A025  Entry Number 502692601

Walter seems to left a will, proved at Ipswich, 11 March 2010
Died 28 January 2010.
You can order the will for just £1.50
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

Death of Eleanor
Sep 1982 Enfield 12 444
Cook, Eleanor Mary
d-o-b 29 March 1907

how do we square the birth date discrepancy?

Gertrude, if she was Eleanor, would have bee a few years older, and WJT a few years younger. Perhaps they equalised their ages somewhere in the middle?

[Annette7]

If the confidential report prepared by the Childrens Society in 1960 is relating to the J R born 1940's (18) and/or the T A born 1940's (13) - brothers - then I think we have proved that they would appear to the children of Walter John Thomas Cook and wife Eleanor Mary nee Downer (and not a Thomas and Gertrude) living at 23 Primrose Avenue (not 25).

Fact - electoral rolls show that at no time did a 'Thomas' and 'Gertrude' Cook live at number 25 (or anywhere in that road)

Fact - if the report is concerning the 2 boys above then they do not appear to be children of a Thomas and Gertrude Cook anyway but of WJT and EM Cook living next door at number 23 (as already stated but only by purchasing a) the birth certificate of J R and b) marriage certificate of said couple, can you confirm occupation of Walter J T Cook).

We could hypothesize forever but a 'Thomas' and 'Gertrude' Cook (both born supposedly ca.1910) living at 25 Primrose Avenue do not appear to have existed there at any time so the confidential report seems to be flawed!

Annette 

[garlands]

Everyone's been extremely helpful and you've all obviously worked very hard to help solve this problem, but I have in my hand the report which was prepared in 1960. Herewith some redacted quotes.

(the elder boy) "was 18 years of age..........and his DoB was 5/3/1942...........he lived with his parents Thomas and Gertrude COOK and his brother..........at 25 Primrose Avenue, Enfield". (His) "parents were both aged 50.........and (his brother) was 12 years of age. Thomas COOK was a factory worker and Gertrude worked as a cleaner with British Railways. Thomas had previously been in the Royal Navy............and left in 1955".

How can that be reconciled  with your findings?

George

[rosie99]

Maybe if you get the 1942 birth certificate it will confirm date of birth and parents

[IgorStrav]

Everyone's been extremely helpful and you've all obviously worked very hard to help solve this problem, but I have in my hand the report which was prepared in 1960. Herewith some redacted quotes.

(the elder boy) "was 18 years of age..........and his DoB was 5/3/1942...........he lived with his parents Thomas and Gertrude COOK and his brother..........at 25 Primrose Avenue, Enfield". (His) "parents were both aged 50.........and (his brother) was 12 years of age. Thomas COOK was a factory worker and Gertrude worked as a cleaner with British Railways. Thomas had previously been in the Royal Navy............and left in 1955".

How can that be reconciled  with your findings?

George

Whilst it does seem unlikely, possibly the details in the report are incorrect. 

They would presumably have been provided by those concerned to whoever compiled it.  Could the compiler have been given incorrect information?

[garlands]

The same thought had occurred to me, but the circumstances surrounding its preparation are such that the respondents had nothing to hide nor to gain from not telling the unvarnished truth. I know that makes no allowance for the vagaries of human behaviour, but most people will tell the truth when questioned; it's simpler than lying.

George