Author Topic: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards  (Read 587 times)

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 26 July 20 20:22 BST (UK) »
Was there a daughter Lily/Lilly born in March 1871?

Could this be her birth entry?

BROWN, LILY  ELIZA  mmn   RABBIT 
 1871  J Quarter in HENDON  Volume 03A  Page 112

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 26 July 20 20:30 BST (UK) »
Lily Eliza Brown b 14 Mar 1871, baptised 9 Jul 1876 Royal Military Chapel St James's Park London
Father George Brown (deceased) Late Col Serjt 3rd Battln Grenadier Guards
Mother Mary Ann Cliniy edit (living)

Edit to add

Lily Eliza Brown
Birth 14 Mar 1871 bap 14 May 1871 Kilburn, Holy Trinity
Parents: George (soldier) & Mary Ann Brown of Park Road Mews

Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 26 July 20 21:14 BST (UK) »
Quote
Mother Mary Ann Cliniy

I think that is Mary Ann (living
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 26 July 20 22:25 BST (UK) »
Quote
Mother Mary Ann Cliniy

I think that is Mary Ann (living

Thanks ShaunJ I did wonder if it was a Surname was going to try and add a snippet from the baptism to confirm - will modify my post  :)

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 26 July 20 23:48 BST (UK) »
The only George Brown, Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards in the 1871 British Army "Worldwide  Index" has the number 1536. I can't find any other army record for him.

However this 1871 census entry seems likely:

St James' Park, Buckingham Palace guardroom:

George Brown, unm, 26, Sergeant 3rd Battalion Grenadier Guards, born Notts, Kirkby in Ashfield
(Piece 357 folio 3 page 1)

There is this George Brown on 1851 census living

Church Street, Kirkby in Ashfield, Basford, Nottinghamshire
Samuel Brown Head F W K b Kirkby, Nottinghamshire
Ann Brown F W K bMansfield, Nottinghamshire
Samuel Brown b Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
George Brown b Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
John   Brown b  Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
Elizabeth W Brown b Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
HO107 Piece 2125 Folio   51 Page   27

Possible marriage FreeBMD
1841 Mansfield
Samuel Brown
female name same page
Ann Waters

BROWN, SAMUEL       mmn WATERS 
1841  D Quarter in BASFORD UNION COUNTIES OF NOTTINGHAM & DERBY  Volume 15  Page 425

BROWN, GEORGE       mmn WATERS 
1843  D Quarter in BASFORD  Volume 15  Page 445

BROWN, GEORGE       mmn WATERS 
 1844  D Quarter in BASFORD  Volume 15  Page 438

Kirkby in Ashfield is in Basford registration district

Edit to add

Fluffypants - Just realised did you mention you have his marriage certificate?
What was his fathers name ?

Offline Fluffypants

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #14 on: Monday 27 July 20 00:43 BST (UK) »
Thank you so ShaunJ and Ladyhawk, this information is great.

Yes, there is a daughter Lily Eliza BROWN who was born in 1871 and I'm waiting on her birth certificate.  There are also two other daughters, Florence Annie BROWN (b. 24 Oct 1872) and Mary Louise BROWN (b. 12 Jan 1876).  I have the 1868 birth certificate for the first son, Arthur George BROWN that gives George's occupation as Sergeant Grenadier Guards.

I don't have a record of birth for George BROWN, only the 2 marriage records.  The 1866 marriage to Mary Ann RABBIT shows his father as Samuel BROWN with the occupation of book keeper and George's occupation is labourer.

In the 1871 marriage for George BROWN and Mary Ann RABBIT, father Samuel BROWN's occupation is a Clerk.  George BROWN's occupation is a Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards.

The other puzzling problem with this family is daughter Lily Eliza BROWN.  She is showing in the 1881 England Census at the Guards Industrial Home - Vauxhall Bridge Road (Francis Street) as a boarder and birth location as London, Middlesex.  In the 1891 census, she is living at Church Oakley, Hampshire at Oakley Manor - the residence of William W B Beach (MP).  Her occupation is a Kitchen Maid and birth location is Kilburn.

Then the clanger for her is the birth of her son Arthur Harold BROWN on 19 Jan 1892. Her name on this record is Lily Eliza BROWN formerly RABBIT.  The father is Arthur George BROWN!!  Based on the records, they could be brother and sister, which is bizarre and I can't find a marriage record for Lily Eliza RABBIT and Arthur George BROWN.  There is a marriage record for Lily Eliza BROWN and Edward DAVIS in 1898 where she is described as a Spinster.  The connection is that Arthur George BROWN and Florence Annie Baker (nee BROWN) are the witnesses.

The family legend is that Lily Eliza was raped whilst in service and Arthur Harold BROWN is her illegitimate son and that she had changed her surname to avoid embarrassment. 

These relationships have had me flummoxed for a few years and your responses have filled some great blanks.
Bailey, Exon, Coles (Somerset), Clarke, Piper (London) Keith (Ayrshire and Glenarm), McLeod and Matheson (Isle of Skye)

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #15 on: Monday 27 July 20 14:18 BST (UK) »

The other puzzling problem with this family is daughter Lily Eliza BROWN

She is showing in the 1881 England Census at the Guards Industrial Home - Vauxhall Bridge Road (Francis Street) as a boarder and birth location as London, Middlesex. 

In the 1891 census, she is living at Church Oakley, Hampshire at Oakley Manor - the residence of William W B Beach (MP).  Her occupation is a Kitchen Maid and birth location is Kilburn.

Then the clanger for her is the birth of her son Arthur Harold BROWN on 19 Jan 1892.
Her name on this record is Lily Eliza BROWN formerly RABBIT.  The father is Arthur George BROWN!! 

Based on the records, they could be brother and sister, which is bizarre and I can't find a marriage record for Lily Eliza RABBIT and Arthur George BROWN. 

There is a marriage record for Lily Eliza BROWN and Edward DAVIS in 1898 where she is described as a Spinster.  The connection is that Arthur George BROWN and Florence Annie Baker (nee BROWN) are the witnesses.


Lily's son Arthur H is living with his grandparents Robert & Mary Ann MASTERS (nee Rabbit) at
38 Park Grove Battersea his surname dittoed as Masters 1901 and surname Brown 1911.

Who registered Arthur Harold Brown's birth? Was it Lily?
What was the occupation given for father Arthur George Brown?
Have you found AGB on any censuses?

Births after 1837 details from familysearch.org

Introduction of civil registration of births in 1837, the birth certificates of illegitimate children usually show only the name of the mother, who is the informant, though the name of the father may sometimes appear.

From 1875 the registrar could not enter the name of the father, unless at the joint request of the father and mother, when the father also signed the register.
When an illegitimate child marries it may leave blank the space for its father's name, but it may then reveal the truth, if it has been learned in the meantime.

It was all too easy to register the birth of an illegitimate child as though it were legitimate by inventing the name of a father. Where a woman does this she may invent a man with the same surname as herself (so that she is "Smith formerly Smith") and give him her own father's forename.

A birth registered late by a woman may indicate that the child is illegitimate, particularly if a marriage cannot be found or if her husband's surname is the same as her own. In such cases the baptism of the child may reveal the true position and this should always be searched for.

I see that Edward Davis & Lily had two sons by 1911 named Edward George 1900 & Wilfred Edwin 1906 (mmn Brown)


Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #16 on: Monday 27 July 20 16:39 BST (UK) »
Not sure if you have seen these records..........

Death Notice

Arthur George Brown, widower occ Painter born Bedfordshire
died 12th Oct 1939 in South Africa  age 71 years 8 months
Father George Brown, deceased mother Mary Ann, deceased
Spouse Elizabeth Brown (born Jackson) died February 1929
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPTV-CSF8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCP-T986

1929 Elizabeth https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCG-CZ95
Husband A G Brown present at death
doesn't look as if Arthur & Elizabeth had any children but Elizabeth edited Martha is a sister
Martha Amelia Holland & Annie Whittle
Marthaís death notice born Berkshire https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:782L-9TW2

and is this Arthur on 1901/1891 census address Kilton Street, Battersea, Wandsworth, London & Surrey

1901
Arthur G Brown Head b Renhold, Bedfordshire occ painters labourer
Elizabeth Brown Wife b Pimlico, Middlesex
John C Johnson Brother-In-Law b Pimlico Engineers Machinist

1891
Arthur G Brown Head b Renhold, Bedfordshire occ Labourer M Ship Yard
Elizabeth Brown Wife Tailoress   b London

Edit to add

Mr A G Brown, occ Decorator
Mrs Brown
Departure 7 10 1909
Departure port   London
Destination port   Durban (Port Natal)
Destination South Africa
Ship name   Dunluce Castle

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Sergeant in the Grenadier Guards
« Reply #17 on: Monday 27 July 20 20:35 BST (UK) »
Do you have the death of Mary Annís husband George Brown?

Is there a possibility this is the same person no first name, no Regt number

Snippet from link

26th June 1876

Q) it is true that Sergeant Brown, of the 3rd Battalion of Grenadier Guards, on returning from exercise at Wormwood Scrubs on or about the 12th instant, was suddenly taken ill, and died in hospital......

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1876-06-26/debates/a19bf3af-503a-446e-bb2b-eaab66da7684/Army

Is this the death entry?

Jun 1876   St. Geo. H. Sq.   1a   291         
Brown   George   age 31