Author Topic: Help with Latin  (Read 387 times)

Offline MattD30

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Re: Help with Latin
« Reply #9 on: Monday 27 July 20 00:20 BST (UK) »
Oops! I know what's happened here. These are the last pages of the 1623 will of Edward Cooper of Slinfold [ref PROB 11/141/574], it seem that for some reason I've deleted the first two pages from my files which probably explains why this bit made no sense.

I've downloaded the whole document again and the first part [the will] looks to be in English so I should be ok with that but I can post bits here if that helps with establishing what this part is saying.

Meanwhile anything you can tell me about this part is greatly appreciated.

Many thanks
Matt

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help with Latin
« Reply #10 on: Monday 27 July 20 01:33 BST (UK) »
Meanwhile anything you can tell me about this part is greatly appreciated.

It would be best to do the will first, as it is far more informative, and consider the Sentence afterwards.

In any case, the Sentence is mostly standard wording and will tell you hardly any more than I've already given you. I'll gladly come back to it later.

Offline MattD30

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Re: Help with Latin
« Reply #11 on: Monday 27 July 20 14:53 BST (UK) »
Meanwhile anything you can tell me about this part is greatly appreciated.

It would be best to do the will first, as it is far more informative, and consider the Sentence afterwards.

In any case, the Sentence is mostly standard wording and will tell you hardly any more than I've already given you. I'll gladly come back to it later.

Thanks for that. I've been looking through the will and most of it makes clear sense with the testator leaving money and property [in various counties] to different nephews, and other relatives.

There is one section which I think I have read correctly but I will post it here later just to double check. In it Edward leaves property "to A and after his death to B, and his heirs, and after that to C etc". I  think I have read it correctly but some of the words are a bit small so it would be good to check.

I've also  spotted two interesting points in the will.

Firstly there's no mention of Edward's sister Judith in the will, although both Robert and Ralph are mentioned as well as their heirs.

Secondly near the end of the will is a marginal note next to the probate. It looks like it relates to the probate as it starts "Probatum". I can see the year 1663 in it as well as the names "Robertus Cooper" [Robert Cooper] and "Radulphus Cooper" [Ralph Cooper] which must relate to his brothers. Oddly though I again cannot see Judith's name mentioned here. The writing is very small though and so I may have missed it. I will try and post this extract later so you or anyone else can see what you make of it.

Matt


Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help with Latin
« Reply #12 on: Monday 27 July 20 23:13 BST (UK) »
Firstly there's no mention of Edward's sister Judith in the will, although both Robert and Ralph are mentioned as well as their heirs.

On a quick read-through, I agree that she does not appear to be mentioned in the will.

Secondly near the end of the will is a marginal note next to the probate. It looks like it relates to the probate as it starts "Probatum". I can see the year 1663 in it as well as the names "Robertus Cooper" [Robert Cooper] and "Radulphus Cooper" [Ralph Cooper] which must relate to his brothers.

A section in the body of the will sets out how the estate is to be passed down the generations. Raphe Cooper, Edward’s brother, was appointed executor on condition that he enter into a bond promising that the entail would not be broken during his lifetime. If Raphe were to default on this, Edward’s nephews, Robert Cooper and Raphe Cooper (sons of his other brother Robert), were to become the executors of Edward’s will in place of Raphe.

Probate was duly granted to Raphe Cooper as the named executor on 24 May 1623. The marginal note of 1663 then states that when Raphe died he had failed to meet the conditions set out in the will. So a second grant of probate was made on 8[?] August 1663 to Robert Cooper and Raphe Cooper (Edward’s nephews on his brother’s side), as stipulated in the will.



Offline MattD30

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Re: Help with Latin
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 28 July 20 00:05 BST (UK) »
Firstly there's no mention of Edward's sister Judith in the will, although both Robert and Ralph are mentioned as well as their heirs.

On a quick read-through, I agree that she does not appear to be mentioned in the will.

Secondly near the end of the will is a marginal note next to the probate. It looks like it relates to the probate as it starts "Probatum". I can see the year 1663 in it as well as the names "Robertus Cooper" [Robert Cooper] and "Radulphus Cooper" [Ralph Cooper] which must relate to his brothers.

A section in the body of the will sets out how the estate is to be passed down the generations. Raphe Cooper, Edward’s brother, was appointed executor on condition that he enter into a bond promising that the entail would not be broken during his lifetime. If Raphe were to default on this, Edward’s nephews, Robert Cooper and Raphe Cooper (sons of his other brother Robert), were to become the executors of Edward’s will in place of Raphe.

Probate was duly granted to Raphe Cooper as the named executor on 24 May 1623. The marginal note of 1663 then states that when Raphe died he had failed to meet the conditions set out in the will. So a second grant of probate was made on 8[?] August 1663 to Robert Cooper and Raphe Cooper (Edward’s nephews on his brother’s side), as stipulated in the will.

Hi

Thanks for clarifying that note for me, I guess you've been reading through the will yourself. I am going to post a few sections either tonight or tomorrow just  to check I've read them correctly.

The thing I like about this is that is very clear in how it describes the relationships of people which is helpful in putting together a tree.

I'll pop the images up soon.

Matt

Offline MattD30

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Re: Help with Latin
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 28 July 20 19:16 BST (UK) »
Firstly there's no mention of Edward's sister Judith in the will, although both Robert and Ralph are mentioned as well as their heirs.

On a quick read-through, I agree that she does not appear to be mentioned in the will.

Secondly near the end of the will is a marginal note next to the probate. It looks like it relates to the probate as it starts "Probatum". I can see the year 1663 in it as well as the names "Robertus Cooper" [Robert Cooper] and "Radulphus Cooper" [Ralph Cooper] which must relate to his brothers.

A section in the body of the will sets out how the estate is to be passed down the generations. Raphe Cooper, Edward’s brother, was appointed executor on condition that he enter into a bond promising that the entail would not be broken during his lifetime. If Raphe were to default on this, Edward’s nephews, Robert Cooper and Raphe Cooper (sons of his other brother Robert), were to become the executors of Edward’s will in place of Raphe.

Probate was duly granted to Raphe Cooper as the named executor on 24 May 1623. The marginal note of 1663 then states that when Raphe died he had failed to meet the conditions set out in the will. So a second grant of probate was made on 8[?] August 1663 to Robert Cooper and Raphe Cooper (Edward’s nephews on his brother’s side), as stipulated in the will.

Hi Bookbox

Here's the section of the will which I think you were referring to in your last post. I've made what I think is a pretty close transcription of it as follows:

“I give and bequeath all the rest of my lands tenemens and hereditaments whatsoever whatsoever they be called or wheresoever lying or being within the counties of Sussex and Surrey to my brother Ralph Cooper for [the] term of his life And alfter his decease to Thomas Cooper his sonne and to the heirs male of the sayd Thomas lawfully begotten or to bee begotten and for want of issue male of the sayd Thomas to remayn to Edward Cooper second sonne of my sayd brother Ralph Cooper and to the heirs male of the sayd Edward Cooper lawfully begotten or to be begotten And for want of issue male of the sayd Edward Cooper to remayn to Robert Cooper my nephew and to the heirs male of the said Robert as aforesaid and for want of such issue male of he said Robert as aforesaid to remayne to Ralph Cooper his brother to the heirs male of the sayd Ralph and for want of issue male of the sayd Ralph as aforesaid to remayne to his brothers in like ___ Item I doe make my brother Ralph Cooper sole executor of this my last will …..”

Note words in [] have been inserted to make it easier to read.

From this I think this establishes how the land etc here should be distributed after Edward's death.

As far as I can tell this tells us that Edward bequeaths the lands etc to his brother Ralph, and then to Ralph's son Thomas and his heirs male, but if Thomas has no heirs male then they are to go to Ralph's second son Edward and his heirs male.

However if Edward has no heirs male then they are to go Robert Cooper nephew of Edward Cooper the testator and to his heirs male.

If Robert has no heirs male then they are to go Robert's brother Ralph and the heirs male of his body. If Ralph has no heirs male they are to go to his brothers.

Would that be about right in summary? It definitely helps in building up a tree for these people.

There is a word in the last line after where it says "for want of issue male of the sayd Ralph as aforesaid to remayne to his brothers in like" which I can't quite make out. Do you have any idea what that word is?

Thanks for your help and I look forward to your thoughts on this.

Matt

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help with Latin
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 28 July 20 20:19 BST (UK) »
Would that be about right in summary? It definitely helps in building up a tree for these people.

Yes, I agree - a good summary. Only a few variations in the spellings. Ralph is actually written as Raphe, but it's essentially the same name. I think the nephews Robert and Raphe are the sons of Edward's other brother Robert, who appears in the Judicial Sentence.

There is a word in the last line after where it says "for want of issue male of the sayd Ralph as aforesaid to remayne to his brothers in like" which I can't quite make out.

... in like sort (= 'in the same way')

Offline MattD30

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Re: Help with Latin
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 28 July 20 22:32 BST (UK) »
Would that be about right in summary? It definitely helps in building up a tree for these people.

Yes, I agree - a good summary. Only a few variations in the spellings. Ralph is actually written as Raphe, but it's essentially the same name. I think the nephews Robert and Raphe are the sons of Edward's other brother Robert, who appears in the Judicial Sentence.

There is a word in the last line after where it says "for want of issue male of the sayd Ralph as aforesaid to remayne to his brothers in like" which I can't quite make out.

... in like sort (= 'in the same way')

Hi Bookbox

Thanks. Yes sorry I did mean to write Raphe but I like you said Raphe and Ralph are essentially the same name. I think I have a will for a Ralph Cowper and there is a Ralph in my notes so I may have just mixed the name up.

I thought that last word started with an "s" but that's as far as I could make it. I had a guess at "sort" but I wasn't certain so at least you've confirmed my thoughts.

Hopefully I can get a bit further in deciphering this will now but if I get stuck again I know where to post any queries.

Many thanks for the help.

Matt