Author Topic: Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott  (Read 237 times)

Offline Nick93

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott
« on: Thursday 30 July 20 04:12 BST (UK) »
Hello everyone, I think I might have finally found a lead on an ancestor I've had a brick wall on for a few years. Justin Knott was born around 1730-33, though I don't know what the source is for that, it's the one I've seen online consistently, and according to Ancestry.com, died on February 5, 1814 in Guilford North Carolina.

For the past several years I've had this family in my tree, and not had any idea who the parents of Justin might be, but then found a thread all the way back from 2002, on the family of Mary Holladay and James Knott.

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/knott/434/

One user says, referring to John Knott (the son of James Knott and Mary Holladay):
 
"And, What relationship was between Justin, and John the Son of James and Mary Holiday Knott. They lived as neighbors both in Virginia, and North Carolina. were they brothers, cousins or what?"

It seems Justin Knott followed John Knott from Virginia to the same part of North Carolina, which I didn't know. He also named three of his sons James, William (the name of the father of James Knott) and David (the name of one of his possible brothers, one of James Knott and Mary Holliday's sons). So the case for kinship seems strong. James Knott apparently had a brother named John who moved to North Carolina at some point who might have been Justin's father (though Justin apparently didn't come to NC until later, and lived in Virginia first).

The geni tree for Mary Knott, nee Holliday, is flawed (as they often tend to be), and mistakes her for her aunt, born in 1680.
https://www.geni.com/people/Mary-Knott/6000000005773375231

I don't know the actual birth date for Mary Holliday who married James Knott, but we do know she was the daughter of Anthony Knott Jr.

Here is her wedding registration in 1718 to James Knott that lists her as a daughter of Anthony Halliday
https://books.google.com/books?id=IG6xMMZO4MIC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=mary+holliday+knott&source=bl&ots=etzaP3VT4R&sig=ACfU3U3G4eY9Qdy-RN1VhPJud7n4dBTPnQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt4JzSgPrpAhX0QzABHbIYCu8Q6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=mary%20holliday%20knott&f=false

The maker of the geni tree seems to be confused, because there were two Anthony Hallidays and presumably, 2 Mary Hollidays, as confirmed by this book:

https://books.google.com/books?id=H9YUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA161&lpg=PA161&dq=halliday+holliday+family+in+virginia&source=bl&ots=9Fk1k_GBfw&sig=ACfU3U1XwxzfoVWGRMUAefykXgyZyh0Kjg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJmNvmwfjpAhWGTTABHVbsB8AQ6AEwB3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=halliday%20holliday%20family%20in%20virginia&f=false

Anthony Halliday/Holliday Sr. had a daughter Mary, born around 1680, but that would make her a bit old for having her first marriage at age 38 (which can be assumed by her being called by her maiden name in the registration), in 1718, and then having all of her children in her 40s.  On the other hand Anthony Halliday Sr. had a son, Anthony Jr. and I think we can presume the Mary Holliday who married James Knott in 1718 was a daughter of his.

Anyway, I had wondered if any Knott family researchers had dug up anything else that might help shed light on the parentage of Justin Knott? That there's some family connection seems highly probable given the names of his sons and the fact that he moved over the border to be neighbors with the other Knott brothers, but as to whether he was a brother or cousin, I guess is the question. The geni page gives Mary's death as February 04, 1766 in Granville County, North Carolina, if that's of any use. I had wondered if there was perhaps a will or anything. The thread I referenced earlier said that the list of James and Mary Knott's children was incomplete. I was curious if since 2002 there had been any updates. Thanks for reading.
 

Offline oldohiohome

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,621
    • View Profile
Re: Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott
« Reply #1 on: Friday 31 July 20 00:23 BST (UK) »
The page you referred to on genealogy.com, https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/knott/434/, says that James, William, and David Knott - the 3 sons of James Knott and Mary Holiday - were in Granville County, NC by 1754.

You have found Justin Knott in Guilford County NC. Have you found him in Granville County also?  If you haven't found Justin in Granville Co, or the sons of Mary Holiday in Guilford Co, then there is no reason to connect Justin Knott to the family of James and Mary (Holiday) Knott. 

Or else I am missing something.

-----
I found these two items, in case you don't have them. Justin and Amy Clark were married by 18 Apr 1759 and were in Brunswick Co on that date:

Indenture made the 18th day of April, 1759, between Joshua CLARK and Justin KNOTT, for natural love and good will that he bears towards the said Justin KNOTT as a son-in-law, conveying 125 acres on South side of Fountains Creek adjoining lands of Henry Lee, Henry COOK, Blunts Branch, Jeremiah BROWN, Rooty Branch, the head of Blunts Branch, Simon CLARK, and Nathl. MITCHELL.  No witnesses given.  Acknowledged in Court on April 24, 1759, by Joshua CLARK.  Deed Book 6, page 340.

http://files.usgwarchives.net/va/brunswick/deeds/brunbk6.txt

- that might tell you something, that he got his land from his father in law, not on his own or from another Knott. But I don't know enough to say what it tells you. Can you follow the Clarks back a generation or so to find out where they came from? It might help you find Justin also.

- and is this 1759 record the earliest positive sighting of Justin? The genealogy.com page says he was born in Brunswick Co VA, and one person said Petersburg VA, (see below) but neither had sources.

--------
Justin was in Guilford County NC by the August term, 1785. There is a James Knott mentioned with him. Search for Knott on the page, not Justin, because he could be the Justian Knott and Tristian Knott mentioned also, transcribed badly.

http://www.gean-ealogy.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I9776&tree=Tree1

--------
This is the page that says that Justin was born in Petersburg VA, which is quite a ride from Brunswick Co VA, but it also says he wasn't  married until 1774, so the birthplace might be wrong as well. I'm just including it because I found it.
https://www.genealogy.com/ftm/r/i/c/Craig-S-Richardson-1/GENE4-0001.html


Offline Nick93

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott
« Reply #2 on: Friday 31 July 20 15:59 BST (UK) »
Hi, OOH, first, thank you for your detailed and helpful reply, as usual.

First, thank you for the deed regarding Joshua Clark and Justin Knott. I was not aware of that. Though I suppose it might also indicate that Justin was living in Brunswick county already when he married Amy Clark, and then was gifted the land by his father in law, and not necessarily that he was from another county and moved there on account of the land gifted to him. Unfortunately the most detailed information I have been able to find on Justin comes from the 2002 thread, and I can't really vouch for anything else.

This geni page (which doesn't mention Justin, and seems to have missed a generation as it gives James Knott who married Mary Holliday as a son of James Knott Jr. when apparently the only son of the original James Knott to stay in Virginia rather than Maryland was William) gives James' birthplace as Brunswick county, though without a source.

https://www.geni.com/people/James-Knott-III/6000000015444412609

I'm not sure about his movements in North Carolina, other than the user in the thread stating that he was a neighbor of the Knott brothers both in Virginia and NC. Perhaps the land he received from his father in law in Brunswick county was a factor in his not relocating at the same time as his possible brothers, though that's just me speculating. I wish that thread weren't so old, haha. I'd love to be able to message the original poster there and ask them where their information came from.

The document regarding the building of a road is interesting. I wonder if the James Knott mentioned there was Justin's son, James, or James, the son of James Knott and Mary Holliday. I have found three DNA connections in the 15-20 cM range for my great uncle with descendants of James Knott (the son of James Sr. and Mary Holliday) and no other Knotts aside from descendants of Justin Knott and Amy Clark. I don't know if that's a false positive though, knowing how many shared ancestors one has going that far back.



Offline oldohiohome

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,621
    • View Profile
Re: Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott
« Reply #3 on: Friday 31 July 20 23:31 BST (UK) »
Justin is still in Brunswick Co VA in 1775 - search for Justin Knott. he's only mentioned 1x on the page.

http://www.bmgen.com/document/txt/Will_VA_Brunswick_Vol_2_Books_4-5_1761-1780.txt

------
Justin Knott was reimbursed for services to the Revolutionary Army, evidently while he was in Guilford County NC

https://services.dar.org/public/dar_research/search_adb/default.cfm

If you click on one of the "D"s for Documentation, you get the descendants who qualified to be in the DAR. At the bottom, it shows that the source for Justin's service is this book:
HAUN, NC REV ARMY ACCTS, VOL VI, BOOK 23, PART IV, P 528

https://www.worldcat.org/title/north-carolina-revolutionary-army-accounts/oclc/866303879

It is a recent book so it isn't in the public domain. You might find a library that will photocopy that page for you. (There are a couple promising ones on that page.) If not, the Family History Library in Salt Lake City has a copy. For $ you could find a researcher out there to copy the page. It might tell you when he was reimbursed for his services, etc., which might give you a date for his arrival in Guilford Co.

-----
August 1781 Court Transcriptions, Guilford Co NC. Some mentions of Justin Knott
including p 106, Justin Knott and Massey Chrstmas Madearas in same event (1783)
I saw somewhere that you were looking for Massey Medeiros also, so this caught my eye.
http://www.greensboro-nc.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=5580

----------
1801, Guilford County NC. some mentions of Justin Knott. transcriptions of court records. I didn't find a Martinsville NC but there is a Martinsville Court and a Martinsville Road in Greensboro

https://library.greensboro-nc.gov/home/showdocument?id=5578
----------
I played around with the numbering of those pages at greensboro-nc.gov a little bit, but didn't go above 5580. You might find more transcripts if you give it a try. Or maybe you will figure out how to get to them from the home page - I didn't try too hard.

---------
That James Knott who is mentioned with Justin on the road work entry could be his son by then, right? Especially if James was the oldest.

--------
My guess still is that Justin went from Brunswick Co VA to Guilford Co. NC without much of a stop, if any, in Granville Co NC. These records only leave a 6 year span from "last seen" in Brunswick Co to "first seen" in Guilford. So your connection, shown by the DNA, to children of James and Mary (Holiday) Knott would go back to Brunswick Co VA.

Maybe Granville Co had filled up by the time Justin left Brunswick Co. so he went further west. Like you said, he had a good deal there, with the land from his father in law. He might have been the last of the brothers to leave the area.

Offline Nick93

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 01 August 20 01:31 BST (UK) »
Oh, this is great, a few unsuspected surprises! First, once again, thank you, OOH, for taking so much time to help a stranger on a forum, it's extremely kind of you. His revolutionary war service is welcome news to me, I had no idea. And what's more, that court document helps to prove Massey Medearis, who I've been searching for information on for years, was indeed named Massey Christmas, not Chisman, as his middle name. I have a hypothesis that he was an illegitimate child of the Christmas family from a county over from his adoptive family, but that's a subject for another thread. Thank you again, so much for what you've found.

Do you believe the DNA evidence, along with the circumstances like names of his sons, and coming from Brunswick county, is strong enough to make a case for, if not a son of James Knott and Mary Holliday, that Justin was part of that extended family?

*Edit* For the record, Justin's son Henry ended up marrying Massey's daughter, Elizabeth.

Offline oldohiohome

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,621
    • View Profile
Re: Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 02 August 20 00:47 BST (UK) »
.. thank you, OOH, for taking so much time to help a stranger on a forum, it's extremely kind of you.
You're welcome. I've done my family and my wife's but am addicted, so I enjoy working on  rootschat threads. My wife's New England families spoiled me with all the records available. The rest of the colonies are really challenging.

Do you believe the DNA evidence, along with the circumstances like names of his sons, and coming from Brunswick county, is strong enough to make a case for, if not a son of James Knott and Mary Holliday, that Justin was part of that extended family?
I don't know enough about DNA to comment on that part. I'm more into paper trails.
Besides # of Cms, doesn't it also matter if they are all the shared DNA is in one piece? You might look into that. And if you have a tree from the people you match, you might be able to eliminate the possibility of the DNA coming from other shared relatives.

But based on the records, you do have them all in the same place and the same time - assuming there is some proof that James Knott and Mary Holiday's children were really in Brunswick Co. I couldn't find any, but it seems to be taken for granted. I didn't look as long for them as for Justin, but I found Knotts in Nasemond Co and thereabouts, then in Granville, NC. But Brunswick Co is along the route, so maybe a generation stopped there.

David is the unusual name in the bunch, if you can find a David Knott back before the lines diverge. And if only you could find an earlier Justin :) - But if he was one of the youngest children, they might have run out of Knott family names and started using neighbors' names. Or maybe "Justin" came from the Holiday side. Can you find a Justin Holiday? Just thinking.

-----------
You might try to find a copy of
The Genealogy of the Knott Family, 1617-1989: Founders of Knott's Berry Farm, Buena Park, California
Knott's Berry Farm, 1989 - Tennessee - 213 pages

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_genealogy_of_the_Knott_family_1617_1.html?id=mBdWAAAAMAAJ

for a library copy, search at https://www.worldcat.org/title/genealogy-of-the-knott-family-1617-1989-founders-of-knotts-berry-farm-buena-park-california/oclc/21145661

this site says how many times "Justin Knott" appears in that book
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt/search?q1=justin+knott&id=wu.89082375510&view=1up&seq=11

---------
There are mentions of the early generations of Knotts in
A dventurers of Purse and Person, Virginia, 1607-1624/5: Families G-P,  John Frederick Dorman, 2004, Genealogical Publishing Co,
https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/tcM40zgdAZgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA427&dq=knott+family+brunswick+county+va

And a resource I always knew was there, but hardly ever used:
Search for Knott in the familysearch catalog:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog

you might find a kind soul in SLC, Utah, who would do a look up for you.

-----
I'm going to attach a few snippets from the Knott's Family book. The whole pages weren't available. If Google isn't violating any copyright by posting them, then I don't think I am.
I wondered if you were connected to the Knott's Berry Farm family, I guess so.

Offline oldohiohome

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,621
    • View Profile
Re: Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 02 August 20 01:11 BST (UK) »
Maybe try Knott's Berry Farm itself for a copy of that book, if you're looking to buy it. I don't think it is available at Amazon or Abebooks, from what I can tell.

Offline Nick93

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Possible lead on the family of Justin Knott
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 02 August 20 03:08 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much for the book suggestion, looking for it now, where I can. Looking at the excerpt you were able to post, it looks like Justin was the son of a John Knott. Now I just need to try to get my hands on the book and see how John Knott fits into the wider family. I assume the book only is focused on the descendants of James Knott, but I'm not sure.