Tollerfields in Alverstoke

[mckha489]

1871?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDD1-1WZ
“Miriem” a sailor’s wife.   But a considerable age difference for Miriem Compared with Mary Ann in 1881 & 1891


Miriem Vale   Wife   Female   48   Liverpool, Lancashire
Pauline Vale   Daughter   Female   15   Liverpool, Lancashire

[frirish]

John Tollerfield cannot be found in Portsmouth because he was born elsewhere. Am currently researching Postwick, Norwich as a possibility. If that pans out then Gloucestershire will be next.

[mckha489]

1872 Crewlist says Dorset
1881 census says Portsmouth
1891 is indexed as Postwick, but I think it says Portsmouth.

Added. An 1876 Irish merchant navy crew list says Portsmouth.
There are agreements up to 1906. I’ve not looked at them all, but the ones I did...Portsmouth.

[Little Nell]

Good find Mckha. 

I also note from frirish's post on Friday 7th (reply #17) that Pauline was not baptised as a baby but in 1868 when she was considerably older.  Have you found that baptism to see if that provides any additional confirmation of her birth etc.

And - frirish - you state quite clearly that in 1881 Pauline was actually born 1853 not 1855 as implied by her age.  May I ask how you know this? 

At the moment, all I can think is that there are quite a few participants in this little puzzle who might have been telling porkies in the 19th century.

Returning to your recent statement:

John Tollerfield cannot be found in Portsmouth because he was born elsewhere. Am currently researching Postwick, Norwich as a possibility. If that pans out then Gloucestershire will be next.

Does this mean that you are no longer interested in Tollerfields in Alverstoke?

Nell

[mckha489]

Good morning Little Nell,

The baptism At St James the Less doesn’t mention her birth at all.

Name Pauline Mary Jane
Parents are given as William & Mary Ann Vale
14 Hankin Street
Dock Gate Man.

Benjamin William (same details) was baptised the same day.

They both have a A in the margin.

[mckha489]

Oh dear. I have found this death

LETHBRIDGE, MARY  JANE     4 
GRO Reference: 1860  M Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 134

Burial record says from Sidney Street, Islington. (Liverpool)

[frirish]

Good morning Little Nell,

The baptism At St James the Less doesn’t mention her birth at all.

Name Pauline Mary Jane
Parents are given as William & Mary Ann Vale
14 Hankin Street
Dock Gate Man.

Benjamin William (same details) was baptised the same day.

They both have a A in the margin.

Hello
Was the baptismal in 1868 by any chance?
I was wondering what the A in the margin referred to and the lack of birth dates for the two.
There was a practice in the Catholic Church in Quebec for performing what was known as a conditional baptism to children born out of the diocese. The mother's word was not good enough and they required proof of baptism form the church were the child was actually first baptized.
My ancestors were in the US and refused to have their children baptized there and waited until they returned to Quebec. I wonder if there is a similar situation with the Vales. Their children could have been born in Devon.

[mckha489]

That was the baptism you referenced in reply#17. 
I posted the details of it for Nell (I assumed you had already seen the image)

It is common for there to be no date of birth on the baptism register, but sometimes it IS there and a bonus.  In this case there is no date of birth.
I think the A indicates they were “Adult” baptisms, which I have always interpreted as being “not babies” but not necessarily adult as we think of it today.  So older children = adult baptism.

[Little Nell]

This is all very curious.

The Vales children were not born in Devon - births are supposed to be registered in the district in which they occur.  Baptisms can take place elsewhere.  There is a birth registration entries for Mary Vale in West Derby RD June qtr 1853 vol 8b 364.

The official GRO indexes give the mother's maiden name for this entry as Murphy.

There is no birth registration for Benjamin Vale with the same mms, but there is one for a William Vale in 1865, Liverpool RD Dec qtr vol 8b p 242

William Vale married Ann Murphy in Sept qtr 1852 vol 8b p 259 (from GRO index).  From Lancashire BMD the marriage took place at Our Lady St. Nicholas & St. Anne, Liverpool.  The original register entry says the following:

11th July 1852
William Vale of full age bachelor black smith of Lambert Street, father Thomas Vale, labourer
Mary Murphy minor spinster of St Vincent Street, father Peter Murphy labourer,
by banns
William & Mary both made their mark
Witneses: George Evans (signed) & Sarah Evans (made her mark)
p 115 entry 229

So there is a birth registration for a daughter of William Vale and his wife Ann ( who might have been Mary Ann, but definitely not the Lydia Jane Hartley as in reply no 17 from OP - I'm still wondering where that came from). 

These people are living at the same address at John Tollerfield and his wife Pauline in 1891, although no relationships are shown.  In 1881 it is just Mary A Vale.

The implication is that Pauline is the daughter of Mary A Vale and therefore William, although she only acquires the name Pauline at baptism.

The first child John has the mms Vale in 1876 and he can be found in the household in 1881. 
The second child Pauline in 1879 has mms Lethbridge, as does Margaret Jane in 1881, Charles in 1887 etc  It seems a fair conclusion that Pauline decided to use the mms Lethbridge after John's birth.  And that is also the name under which she married in 1873 - see the marriage entry.  As I said before no mention of William Vale at all.

One wonders why she did that.

Anyway, since my question about whether you are still interested in Tollerfields in Alverstoke remains unanswered, I shall leave this query now.

Good luck.

Nell

Added: I agree with Mckha, th 'A' probably indicated adult or older child baptisms