Author Topic: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast  (Read 677 times)

Offline jonw65

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,710
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 15 August 20 23:29 BST (UK) »
Hi Mark
Yes, Samuel seems to have one or two gongs. Army careers are always fascinating, and his looks to be action packed

I did wonder if Elizabeth might have been in the army birth indexes (if she was indeed born just before her father's discharge), but I think that was too much to hope for. Two baptisms will have to do :)

Let us know how you get on with those certs. Do you have a death for Samuel? :-\
John

Offline Buffnut453

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 16 August 20 13:29 BST (UK) »
I'm working to find a death date for Samuel.  According to the Census records, it appears he died sometime between 1861 and 1871. 

The 1861 Census lists the family but, for some reason, Samuel is listed as "James".  The surname is Heyes and his occupation is identified as "Pensioner" so I presume that it's still Samuel despite the error.

The 1871 Census appears to show that Eliza Jane has remarried to a Thomas Bate, a Railway Official who was born at Northwich, Cheshire.  John Hayes, Samuel's and Eliza's youngest son, is living with his mother and step-father.  He's the only other person in the household. 

GRO lists the death of a Samuel Hayes in Warrington District in 1864 which is probably him:

HAYES, SAMUEL       71 
GRO Reference: 1864  J Quarter in WARRINGTON  Volume 08C  Page 95


This date jives with the record of Eliza Jane remarrying:

Marriage: 30 Sep 1865 St Paul, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Thomas Bate - 62, Railway Policeman, Widower, Heath Street
Eliza Jane Hayes - 51, Widow, Silver Street
    Groom's Father: Richard Bate, Labourer
    Bride's Father: Henry Searle, Labourer
    Witness: John Massey, (X); Jane Bruce, (X)
    Married by Banns by: John D. Massingham
    Register: Marriages 1865 - 1869, Page 18, Entry 35
    Source: Original Parish Register

Offline jonw65

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,710
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #29 on: Sunday 16 August 20 22:15 BST (UK) »
Hi
That's a bonus in a way for Eliza Jane as it seems to fit that Portsea baptism.
For confirmation of the death of Samuel have you tried the WO 23 records on findmypast? I am at the disadvantage of being unable to see anything on that website until my local library reopens (if they haven't cancelled their sub by then!)

I think they give date of admission to pension, district of payment, and then in the yearly columns note any change in district and give date of death (if they go up as far as the pensioner's death!)
I can see a couple of Saml Hayes, 47th Foot, in the index.
John


Offline Buffnut453

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #30 on: Sunday 16 August 20 22:39 BST (UK) »
Hi John,

Yes, it took a little fettling with the search criteria on FindMyPast but I did find his death date as 16 June 1864 which matches the GRO Register entry of Q2 1864.  His pension date was 12 Dec 1832 which matches the record of his discharge from the Kilmainham Hospital.  His pension rate is given as 1s 7d. 

There's an interesting note for the year 1861 which says "2 Lpool 1/9/61".  Clearly that's something to do with Liverpool but I have no idea of the significance, unless it was a hospital admission?

The pension records do include some other variable information.  The first record lists his home as Stockport while later it's listed, correctly, as Warrington.  Maybe Stockport was the point to which the Army covered his transport costs home? 

Cheers,
Mark

Offline jonw65

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,710
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #31 on: Sunday 16 August 20 22:56 BST (UK) »
Hi
Oh that is excellent. Don't have a burial though.
I don't know what "2 Lpool 1/9/61" is, as far as I know they usually only give the name of the district from which payments were made. Either Samuel moved (doesn't seem likely?) or perhaps there was a change in the pension districts. You need an expert opinion on that!
John

Offline Buffnut453

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #32 on: Monday 17 August 20 08:33 BST (UK) »
Correct, I haven't found a burial date yet.  I'll need to keep searching for that information.

Like you, I had hoped to find the birth record for Elizabeth in the records of children born to soldiers.  However, if she was born in late 1832, then it's possible her birth was missed given the back-and-forth surrounding Samuel's discharge, coupled with the fact that he was apparently in hospital for much of the time due to his liver complaint. 

One of the benefits of finding family members with military service (or a criminal record, for that matter) is that they often include a physical description and other little details, like the fact that he was a carder before enlisting.  Samuel's discharge papers list his height as 5ft 6.5ins with light brown hair, grey eyes and a fresh complexion.  His character was noted as "that of a good and highly efficient soldier, very seldom in hospital.  As a Non-Commissioned Officer, very trustworthy, zealous and sober."  It's not much...but it helps paint a picture of the man.   

I think we've pretty much done this problem to death.  Thanks to your help, I've discovered a tremendous amount of new information about my direct ancestors.  I'll be posting another problem here shortly, though, as I have another direct ancestor, James Gamble, born in Ireland who stubbornly refuses to reveal any details.

Offline Buffnut453

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #33 on: Thursday 20 August 20 11:22 BST (UK) »
Received Samuel Hayes' death certificate.  He died on 10 June 1864 at his residence, 30 Pinner's Brow, Warrington, Lancashire.  His wife, Eliza Jane Hayes, was in attendance.  Cause of death was bronchitis which he'd been suffering from for 18 months.  Samuel was listed as 71 years old at the time of his death.  His occupation is listed as "Wire Drawer - Journeyman."

I really love it when documentation completely confirms other details about a family.  The Pinner's Brow location is interesting because I had some candidate burial dates for his parents, and both of those records also listed Pinner's Brow or Pinmaker's Brow which appears to confirm they were related to Samuel.

Offline jonw65

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,710
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #34 on: Thursday 20 August 20 11:35 BST (UK) »
Hi
Thanks for letting us know, excellent news.
Hope you get on well with those possible parents!
John

Offline Buffnut453

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Finding Elizabeth Hayes, born abt 1833, Belfast
« Reply #35 on: Thursday 20 August 20 11:46 BST (UK) »
Hi John,

The details for Samuel's parents look pretty solid.  On enlisting, he gave his birth year as 1792 and that tallies well with all info about him down to his death certificate.  The following Christening record is the only one in Warrington in the right timeframe:

Baptism: 13 May 1792 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
Samuel Hayes - Son of Samuel Hayes & Betty
    Occupation: Husbn
    Register: Baptisms 1781 - 1812, Page 134, Entry 4103
    Source: LDS Film 1562957

I've managed to find a marriage date for Samuel (the elder) and a Betty Latham in 1780, as well as 7 other children (in addition to Samuel (the younger)) born in the period 1781-1798. 

Burial records indicate Samuel (the elder) died in 1815 while Betty died in 1827.  I'm still working to identify parents for them. 

Overall, this is a great result.  Thanks (yet again!) for all the help.  You really helped me overcome this blockage in my family tree. 

Cheers,
Mark