Seeking James Gamble, born in Ireland 1812-1820(ish)

[Buffnut453]

I have another Ireland problem that hopefully someone can help me overcome.

One of my Great-Great-Grandfathers was a James Gamble who was born in Ireland but moved to St.Helens, Lancashire, sometime before 1841.  His year of birth is incredibly vague, as shown by the following records and the corresponding identified birth year:
•   1841 Census lists age as 25 so born in 1816
•   1849 Marriage Certificate lists age as 32 so born in 1817
•   1851 Census lists age as 31 so born in 1820
•   1861 Census lists age as 49 so born in 1812
•   1869 Death Certificate lists age as 57 so born in 1812

The 1841 Census records that James worked as a chemical labourer (St.Helens was well-known for its chemical industries) but he later took ownership of a 'flat', a type of canal barge, and worked on the Sankey Canal that ran between St.Helens and Widnes.  James married Hannah Ellis in 1849 at St.Thomas' Church, Eccleston (Hannah's father was also a boatman, and Hannah was living at Widnes Dock at the time of the marriage).

James' marriage certificate identifies his father as Baptist Gamble, a factory manager.  I can find no record of any birth of a James Gamble with a father Baptist Gamble, nor can I find any records for a Baptist Gamble living anywhere in the UK in the timeframe in question.  From what I can gather, there seem to be a few Baptist Gambles originating from County Fermanagh.  Many of the Gambles from that area seem quite well-to-do, indeed there's a well-known Gamble family in St.Helens who originated from there.  However, "my" James Gamble was illiterate (signing "X" on his marriage certificate) so it seems he came from much humbler stock.

A few other potential clues came from likely relatives recorded in the England Censuses.  In the 1841 Census, James is living with a nephew, also James, aged 3, who was born in Manchester.  It seems that the younger James' father was a Joseph Gamble because Joseph and son James (the younger) appear together in the 1851 Census.  Joseph is listed as a widower aged 32 (giving a birth year of 1819) and was born in Ireland.  Joseph's birth year is repeated in his 1881 Census record.  His death certificate in 1889 gives an age of 75, so a birth year of 1814. 

The younger James Gamble appears again living with the older James Gamble's family, together with a niece of James the elder, named "Sahrit Crop", listed as a 16 year-old house servant who was born in Manchester.  All attempts to find any formal records for Joseph, James the younger, or "Sahrit Crop" have failed.  The closest I have come is a possible marriage of Joseph to a Mary Livesley in 1835 but that's far from certain (plus, if his age from the 1851 Census is correct, he'd be rather young to be marrying in 1835). 

Is there any way to identify the actual father of James Gamble (the elder)?  Since I don't even know where to start looking within Ireland, it seems an impossible task given the relative paucity of online resources.

Any and all help would be HUGELY appreciated!

Many thanks in advance,
Mark

[Dundee]

...... a niece of James the elder, named "Sahrit Crop", listed as a 16 year-old house servant who was born in Manchester. 

The surname is CROSS and the first name is perhaps supposed to be Sarah with the letters mixed up. 

It isn't a lack of online records that is the problem but a lack of any records at all when you get back to that period in Ireland.  What religion were they?

Debra 

[Buffnut453]

Hi Dundee,

It could be Sarah Cross...although it's quite a mix-up. 

James Gamble appears to have been Protestant.  He married in a CofE church and all his children (who survived into adulthood) also married in CofE churches in St.Helens.

Cheers,
Mark

[Sinann]

The COI records will be online at some point the project was started a while back.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/09/church-of-ireland-parish-registers-to.html

Meanwhile if you can figure out where he was from this list tells what registers survive, where they are held and if online
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf

[Buffnut453]

The COI records will be online at some point the project was started a while back.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/09/church-of-ireland-parish-registers-to.html

Meanwhile if you can figure out where he was from this list tells what registers survive, where they are held and if online
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf

Hi Sinann,

Unfortunately, the only records I have uncovered all relate to his time in England, and they just give Ireland as the location.  About the best option I can come up with is trying to work through County Fermanagh records but that will be prohibitively time-consuming if they aren't digitized (not to mention, getting there from Germany would be problemmatic). 

Kind regards,
Mark

[oldohiohome]

previous topic for reference
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=816780.0

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have you looked at this
Pedigree of the Gambles of Fermanagh [microform]
Gamble, David, 1823-1907; Gamble, J. W. (John William), 1798?-1873

https://ia800303.us.archive.org/1/items/cihm_34171/cihm_34171.pdf

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have you Googled "baptist gamble fermanaugh"

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other than that, it might be a matter of waiting and slogging through them, as mentioned:

The COI records will be online at some point the project was started a while back.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/09/church-of-ireland-parish-registers-to.html

Meanwhile if you can figure out where he was from this list tells what registers survive, where they are held and if online
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf

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regarding "Many of the Gambles from that area seem quite well-to-do, indeed there's a well-known Gamble family in St.Helens who originated from there."

The name Baptist ran in the family, so his father might not have been from the well-to-do branch.

Or he was named after one of the well-to-do branch, giving him high hopes, something to work for, or maybe hoping for a bit of inheritance from the man he was named after

[Elwyn Soutter]

Couple of probate abstracts:

The Will of Baptist Gamble late of Graan County Fermanagh Esquire who died 1 December 1890 at same place was proved at Armagh by Baptist Gamble M.D. and Thomas Elliott Architect both of Enniskillen said County the Executors.

The will itself is on-line on the PRONI wills site and Dr Baptist Gamble is the deceased’s nephew.

Gamble Baptist William of 2 Elmwood Terrace Lisburn Road Belfast retired railway official died 10 December 1928 at Enniskillen Probate Belfast 5 April to Mabel Gamble the widow. Effects £732 8s. 7

The above family was Methodist in 1901 but would have been Church of Ireland in the early 1800s (Methodism didn’t really get going in Ireland as a separate denomination till the 1820s, and even then many Methodists continued to use the Church of Ireland for baptisms and especially marriages for many years after that):

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Windsor/Tates_Avenue/966600/

Baptist Gamble is not a common name. There’s only 1 in the 1901 & 1911 Irish censuses, so you might expect them all to be related.

[gaffy]

There are a few Gamble burials in Old Rossory cemetery at the link below, note the reference that further detail on the family is in volume 3 of William Copeland Trimble's 'History of Enniskillen' (pages 1124-1125):

https://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/cemeteries/old-rossory-cemetery-1.txt

[Buffnut453]

previous topic for reference
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=816780.0

-------------
have you looked at this
Pedigree of the Gambles of Fermanagh [microform]
Gamble, David, 1823-1907; Gamble, J. W. (John William), 1798?-1873

https://ia800303.us.archive.org/1/items/cihm_34171/cihm_34171.pdf

------------
have you Googled "baptist gamble fermanaugh"

------------
other than that, it might be a matter of waiting and slogging through them, as mentioned:

The COI records will be online at some point the project was started a while back.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/09/church-of-ireland-parish-registers-to.html

Meanwhile if you can figure out where he was from this list tells what registers survive, where they are held and if online
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf

----------
regarding "Many of the Gambles from that area seem quite well-to-do, indeed there's a well-known Gamble family in St.Helens who originated from there."

The name Baptist ran in the family, so his father might not have been from the well-to-do branch.

Or he was named after one of the well-to-do branch, giving him high hopes, something to work for, or maybe hoping for a bit of inheritance from the man he was named after

The Pedigree of the Gambles of Fermanagh is well-known where I come from as it includes Sir David Gamble who donated the Gamble Institute in St.Helens for the betterment of the population.  My Mum clings onto a family legend that Sir David came to open a school near where her Grandparents lived and came over for tea, starting the rumour that we were somehow related to him.  However, intense scrutiny of the available records has revealed nothing.

Given that the Gambles of Fermanagh were clearly educated going back to the 17th century, I have a hard time believing that my Great-Great-Granddad, who was illiterate, is in any way related.  Even if one of the offspring was a black sheep, I find it hard to believe that the ability to read would be lost within a generation or two.  I suppose stranger things have happened but it certainly would be a little odd. 

The other snag with the genealogy as listed is the complete lack of any viable candidates for Baptist Gamble, the father of James Gamble.  I'm aware of a Baptist Gamble who drowned in 1839 who might be a candidate but, alas, I can't find any confirmation that he was married or had children.