Author Topic: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones  (Read 4213 times)

Offline Gadget

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #36 on: Friday 28 August 20 10:59 BST (UK) »
So they might well have both been using the patronymic - Jane Williams (father William ??Jones) then becomes Jane Hughes ( father William ??Hughes).

I recall pouring over the records of the  Penllyn parishes working out the machinations of the patronymics of  one of my lines.
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Offline wallbanger

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #37 on: Friday 28 August 20 14:08 BST (UK) »
David's residence looks like Llanrug. Jane's Llandwrog.

Add- Witnesses - Robert Lloyd and Hugh Williams.

 Jane made her mark. Others signed.

Could there be two David and Jane marrying at roughly the same time?

Funnily enough, I was going to bring up the subject of marriages this morning after coming across a David Lloyd at  When I first received the birth certificate, I immediately started looking at the parish marriages and that particular marriage was the only one that came up. I did more searches on both FreeBMD and North Wales BMD. The results for David Jones all had alternative name options e.g. David Lloyd and there was a Jane Hughes and Jane Williams options, so I think you may be right in that there may have been two at the same time. My other thought was that perhaps David Jones might have been David Lloyd Jones, because the explanations given for alternative name options was that all the name combinations come up as options, if that makes sense.

David and Catherine’s son, William was baptised William Lloyd, so the name Lloyd must figure somewhere along the line.

The marriage certificate I’ve sent for is for Jane Hughes and David Jones, so it’ll be interesting to see what the actual names turn out to be.

Before I came on here, I was looking at the burials using Lloyd instead of Jones and found both David and Catherine.

I’ve not had any experience in the use of patronymics and only know the absolute basics, so your help would be invaluable. In your experience, do you think David Jones would be using patronymic conventions or perhaps just dropping the Jones surname?

Thank you, Gadget, for both your patience and help.



Offline Gadget

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #38 on: Friday 28 August 20 14:20 BST (UK) »
Quote
I’ve not had any experience in the use of patronymics and only know the absolute basics, so your help would be invaluable. In your experience, do you think David Jones would be using patronymic conventions or perhaps just dropping the Jones surname?

It could have been that he went by both at various times. Have you looked for Jane and Anne's baptisms under Lloyd?

Re his place of birth being recorded as Llanbedr* on the 1881, I recall seeing  some document with either he or Francis Lloyd being born in the Harlech area, which could fit, but I can't find it at the moment.

*add - I see on the 1871, he is born Ffestiniog!
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Offline wallbanger

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #39 on: Friday 28 August 20 14:25 BST (UK) »
Hi,

I  have a Gwynedd family History Booklet for the memorial inscriptions form St Thomas Church, Llandwrog and it makes several mentions of Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirrion. The first burial was in 1855

I am uncertain exactly what you are looking for but if you let me know precisely what you are looking at I will check the booklet.

As examples there are 2 entries -
A David Lloyd (died 1884 age 72) and Catherine Lloyd (died 1900 age 77) of Bryn Tirion, Mynydd, Cilgwyn,

And a John Williams (died 1887 age 44) and Jane Williams (died 1925 age 85) of Bryntirion, Carmel.

Alan

Alan

Thank you so much, Al,

There must be some connection between the two families but I’m not quite up to speed yet today. I’ve been at the dentists all morning.

I was doing a property search through the 1881 & 1891 census’ before I went out, and came across the David Lloyd entry for Bryn Tirion. As he is a master tailor, I’m inclined to think it has to be David Jones, and the two sons tie in, too.

I had a look in the parish burials but used Lloyd instead of Jones and found David d. 1884 and Catherine d. 1900. Both were at Bryn Tirion.

I won’t repeat what I’ve posted to Gadget about the marriages, as I’m assuming you will see it. It’s all out of my level of experience but I’m hoping it will become clearer.

I’d love to know the relevant inscriptions that you’ve come across for Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirion if you’ve got time, and if you come across one for first wife Jane from 1851 Tai Newyddion, I’d appreciate that one. She is my partner’s great grandmother.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.


Offline wallbanger

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #40 on: Friday 28 August 20 14:33 BST (UK) »
Quote
I’ve not had any experience in the use of patronymics and only know the absolute basics, so your help would be invaluable. In your experience, do you think David Jones would be using patronymic conventions or perhaps just dropping the Jones surname?

It could have been that he went by both at various times. Have you looked for Jane and Anne's baptisms under Lloyd?

Re his place of birth being recorded as Llanbedr on the 1881, I recall seeing  some document with either he or Francis Lloyd being born in the Harlech area, which could fit, but I can't find it at the moment.

Thanks, Gadget. I’ll check out the baptisms for them again in a little while. I’m not feeling very well at the moment.

The 1871 census had David’s birthplace as Harlech, so it might have been that one you were thinking of.

Thanks again.

Offline Gadget

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #41 on: Friday 28 August 20 14:58 BST (UK) »
Re patronymics - I found this was helpful when I started delving into them

http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/helachau/patronymics.htm4

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Offline Tall Al

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #42 on: Friday 28 August 20 16:24 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Here is an outline of what I can currently see -
Bryn Tirion - D019 - David and Catherine Lloyd
                   D017 - John and Jane Williams 

Details already shown in previous post

Bryn Trallwyn - E003 -Evan E Jones died 1896 age 7 months
Bryn Tallwyn Uchaf - A053 William W Hughes died 1882 age 78; Jane Hughes died 1877 age 70
                              A044 William David Hughes died 1897 age 55
There is also Bryn Trallwm Uchaf - is this same place?
A054 Margaret Owen died 1871 age 86
B054 Margaret Owen died 1872 age 18 (Daughter of William and Margaret Owens) also
Jane Owens died 1884 age 27 and Ellen Owen died 1896 age 48
There are Welsh verses for each of these children but until you tell me they are yours i will pass on writing them all down. 

The church opened in 1855 so there is nothing for David's first wife Jane who died in 1851.

Should you require more details just let me know.

Alan                     

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #43 on: Saturday 29 August 20 10:59 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much, Alan, for that information.

I understand about not copying the verses. They are very personal to the families concerned, and it wouldn’t feel right reading them without a connection.

The only child burial I have so far is that for Margaret Jones, baptised 1841 and died 1842. She was David and Jane’s first child as shown in the 1841 census.

The names of Hughes and Williams are a bit of an enigma. I shall look forward to finding out more about the possible connection. I’m probably going to have to wait another few weeks before I receive the marriage certificate, but that might shed more light on it, and I can then perhaps find Jane Hughes birth or baptism record. Thank you so much for the William and Jane Hughes info. They look like the definite contenders, although I did wonder if her mother might be a Margaret because of the daughter’s name.

I don’t know about the Bryntrallwyn properties themselves. Looking at the old tithe maps and apportionments, Bryntrallwyn looks a single property, which may currently be Farm Bryntrallwyn. I wasn’t sure to begin with whether or not it was simply used as a kind of location marker for that particular area for the census. Jane Jones birth certificate simply states Bryntrallwyn as her place of birth. Later maps have more Bryntrallwyn properties, such as Bryntrallwyn Uchaf and Trallwyn Terrace.

Thanks again, Alan. I very much appreciate your help.

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Re: Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones
« Reply #44 on: Saturday 29 August 20 11:07 BST (UK) »
Re patronymics - I found this was helpful when I started delving into them

http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/helachau/patronymics.htm4

Thank you for the link, Gadget. Sadly, I can’t see the actual file, possibly because I’m not a member of the society. It just give three links to search other genealogy websites such as Ancestry.

This is the latest info I’ve looked at, including Alan’s:

1881 Bryn Tirion  David Lloyd, Catherine Lloyd, William Lloyd Robert Lloyd & grandchildren Robert Williams, 4, & Ellen Williams, 3. (Robert is possibly the son of Mary née Lloyd and David Williams.)

David Lloyd died 1884 Bryn Tirion
Catherine Lloyd died 1900 Bryn Tirion

1991 Tai Newyddion Catherine Lloyd, William Lloyd and Robert Lloyd

1901 Tai Newyddion William D. Lloyd & brother Robert D. Lloyd. Niece Ellen Parry, house servant.
It appears that William and Robert have now added David to their names.

William David Lloyd married Catherine Roberts 1st Nov 1905 Transcription gives place as Llandegwning. Residence at time of marriage: Bryntirion, Cilgwyn. Father David Lloyd, tailor.
Marriage solemnised at St Thomas’ Church, Llandwrog.

Mary Lloyd married David Williams 19 Jan 1876 Transcription gives place as Llandegwning. Residence at time of marriage: Bryntirion. Her father listed as David Lloyd, tailor.
Marriage solemnised at St Thomas’ Church, Llandwrog.

Looking up Llandegwning, it comes up as a parish in Pwllheli.

I still couldn’t find any baptisms for Anne or Jane under either Lloyd or Jones.

Re. Francis. On the marriage certificate for Jane Williams and David Jones, Although it has been transcribed as Francis, I thought on close inspection that it could actually be William Hughes. What do you think?