Llandwrog, Bryntrallwyn, Jones

[Gadget]

Re patronymics - I found this was helpful when I started delving into them

http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/helachau/patronymics.htm4

Thank you for the link, Gadget. Sadly, I can’t see the actual file, possibly because I’m not a member of the society. It just give three links to search other genealogy websites such as Ancestry.

It must be a problem at your end as it's an open site that doesn't need membership to access. I don't have to login or anything to access the link.

Click on this link

http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/miscellanea.htm

and then on  Patronymic Paranoia, top right.  It will take you to the link that I gave.

[wallbanger]

Ah, yes, thanks, Gadget, I’ve got it now. 

[Tall Al]

Hi,

As you have mentioned Tai Newyddion I thought to let you know there are 3 entries in the booklet from 1930's - all relating to Evans families. If you find a connection let me know and i will post details.

This also applies to Trallwyn Terrace which has 4 entries - surnames Williams; Jones (x2) and Ellis.

Alan

[wallbanger]

Thank you, Alan, I will.
Diolch yn fawr 

[Woostie]

Hi,

I live in Carmel and am willing to help, if I can.

I'm currently researching the history of the village and am slowly working my way through the Census records.

What I have noticed is that when Llandwrog is given as a place of birth, it refers to the district/area rather than just the village of Llandwrog. So anyone born in Carmel, Cilgwyn or nearby would more than likely be just listed as Llandwrog. On top of that, there is a smaller community called Upper Llandwrog, but that is part of Llandwrog district/area.

As far as I'm aware, the Church of St Thomas mentioned by another poster was Church in Wales. The church has been demolished and the graveyard is pretty overgrown.

There are 2 cemeteries in Carmel, both non-conformist. One is Capel Pisgah and the other is Capel Carmel. There is also an older cemetery but I'm not sure which church/chapel that belonged to. Do you know which religion your relatives belonged to?

I'm happy to have a look at the cemeteries in Carmel for you if that would help but it would be good to know what religion they were as both cemeteries are quite big.

If so, would you mind listing the names and years of birth/death that you are looking for as I've got a bit confused reading through all the posts.

As far as I know Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirion are both in Cilgwyn which is very close by but I have seen them both referred to as being part of Carmel in some records. There are many graves for residents from Cilgwyn, Y Fron and Upper Llandwrog at the cemeteries in Carmel so it looks as though they covered the whole area.

 

[wallbanger]

Hi,

I live in Carmel and am willing to help, if I can.

I'm currently researching the history of the village and am slowly working my way through the Census records.

What I have noticed is that when Llandwrog is given as a place of birth, it refers to the district/area rather than just the village of Llandwrog. So anyone born in Carmel, Cilgwyn or nearby would more than likely be just listed as Llandwrog. On top of that, there is a smaller community called Upper Llandwrog, but that is part of Llandwrog district/area.

As far as I'm aware, the Church of St Thomas mentioned by another poster was Church in Wales. The church has been demolished and the graveyard is pretty overgrown.

There are 2 cemeteries in Carmel, both non-conformist. One is Capel Pisgah and the other is Capel Carmel. There is also an older cemetery but I'm not sure which church/chapel that belonged to. Do you know which religion your relatives belonged to?

I'm happy to have a look at the cemeteries in Carmel for you if that would help but it would be good to know what religion they were as both cemeteries are quite big.

If so, would you mind listing the names and years of birth/death that you are looking for as I've got a bit confused reading through all the posts.

As far as I know Bryntrallwyn and Bryntirion are both in Cilgwyn which is very close by but I have seen them both referred to as being part of Carmel in some records. There are many graves for residents from Cilgwyn, Y Fron and Upper Llandwrog at the cemeteries in Carmel so it looks as though they covered the whole area.

 

Hi Woostie,

Thanks for your post. I didn’t get the usual notification so I’ve only just seen it.

The birth certificate I received from the GRO was for Jane Jones, born 26th December, 1846, Bryntrallwyn, Llandwrog. Parents David Jones, tailor, and Jane Jones, formerly Hughes. This birth certificate is for the birth my partner, Gareth’s great grandmother.

In a nutshell, I’m trying to find the marriage of David Jones and Jane Hughes, which isn’t proving very successful; I’ve sent for a couple that have been wrong. I want to be sure of the father’s names so I can then hunt for the birth certificates.

They had 4 children:
Margaret b. 1841 d. 1842. Address 1841 was Ty Newydd, Bryntirion
Anne b. 1844.
Jane b. 1846 d. 1940 in Penmaenmawr, living with daughter.
David b. 1849

Address in the ‘51, ‘61 & ‘71 census, Ty Newyddion, Bryntirion. St Thomas parish. In the 1881 census, it is just Bryn Tirion.

The mother, Jane Jones, died on the 20th April 1951, aged 29, and was buried at St Thomas on the 24th April. I’m assuming that she is possibly buried with her daughter, Margaret who died in 1842. If you come across the grave, I’d be thrilled. I got the death certificate yesterday. (#Big Al, do you have these two in your M.I.s?)

Jane’s youngest son, David, is the only one shown with the new family in the 1861 census.

David Jones remarries a Catherine, and has 6 more children:
Mary Jones b. 1853 d. 1895. (marries David Williams)
Catherine Jones b. 1855 d. 1866
Owen Jones b. 1858.
William Lloyd Jones b. 1863 d. 1932 (marries a Catherine Roberts.)
Robert Jones b. 1865
Jane A. Jones b. 1869

I’ve also noticed researching the area that at various times that this area, as you say, is addressed either to Cilgwyn or Carmel.

My primary focus is David Jones & Jane Hughes, and their four children. Things seem to get a bit confusing after David remarries. He stays in the same property, but from the 1881 census, he drops the Jones, and becomes David Lloyd. I’m assuming that this is connected to his own father. His then wife. Catherine, and their children also use Lloyd, and not Jones, although William had already been given the name as a middle name.

I’ve been unable to find baptisms for all the children. Margaret was baptised, but Anne and Jane don’t appear to have been, unless I just haven’t looked in the right place. I wondered if perhaps David Jones was non-conformist but Jane Hughes wasn’t, but I really don’t know which religion they followed.

A David Lloyd died 1884, Bryn Tirion. St Thomas, Llandwrog. A Catherine Lloyd died 1900, Bryn Tirion, again, St Thomas, but David’s wife, Catherine Lloyd is on the 1891 census as a widow, with sons, William & Robert.

There was an issue on FindMyPast with the Llandwrog Parish Records index, which I notified both them and the Gwynedd Archives about, and they confirmed. Some marriage and burial records for St Thomas has been wrongly indexed to Llandegwning.

If you can find anything, I’d be very grateful. I’m disappointed that St Thomas is now a ruin. I was looking forward to going there. I love old chapels, churches & churchyards. Are there any graves still standing?

Apologies if this is no less confusing than previous info I’ve posted. It’s the way I tell ‘em…

I’d love to meet up with you when we can get over, if you’re up for it. I don’t suppose you’d fancy showing Gareth and me around? I won’t be offended if you don’t fancy it, I’ll understand. We’re about an hour away, near Llanrwst.

Thanks again.

[Woostie]

Hi Wallbanger,

Thanks for your reply. I (think) I've got my head round it now.

There are lots of graves at the churchyard of St. Thomas. The foundations of the church still exist and it's a lovely place to visit, if you get my drift, very peaceful. I've only been once and I didn't manage to see many of the graves as it was a hot summer's day (lol) and I was wearing shorts and it's a bit overgrown with brambles and nettles so I didn't venture too far. But it's definitely worth a proper look.

I'm puzzled as to why David Snr would change his surname, but this genealogy game does tend to throw up more questions than answers sometimes.

I've only lived in Carmel for just over a year so I'm still getting used to the layout of the old farms etc. I've seen it plenty of times when a farm has just a name, e.g. Bryntirion, then in the next census it's called Bryntirion Bach, then in the census after that it's called Bryntirion Something Else (just an example I mean). It's so difficult to establish the true facts sometimes but isn't that just the joy of it?

I'd be more than happy to meet up with you both if you're ever in the area. I don't know the area too well, as I've mentioned, but I'm working on it.

In the meantime I will check my own records. I'm concentrating on Carmel itself, or what I deem to be Carmel today. I do have some notes for Cilgwyn but I put them aside when I realised that I had plenty enough to work on just in one village.

Happy Hunting
Woostie

[wallbanger]

Hi Wootsie,
Thanks, too, for your reply. It’s not easy moving to a new area, is it? We’ve only been here a couple of years, but we were here off and on since 2005. I still haven’t finished unpacking everything we had in storage. We haven’t got much storage space so I’ve seriously got to offload a load of stuff, but I’ve been distracted with all this over lockdown while I’ve been shielding.

St Thomas’ sounds like an old church that’s near me, St Mary’s. There’s just the foundations left marking the outline, and it’s been left to nature but it’s not too overgrown, weeds and wild flowers. Beautiful, so quiet and peaceful.

I got Jane née Hughes death certificate yesterday, but the marriage certificate I’d requested came back negative. That’s two failed attempts. I’ve sent off for a third, so fingers crossed, although they are taking a long time to come through because of Covid. I think the issue must be with the names not matching parents names. I’ve only requested certificates with both names on the same index page, and also asked for 3 year searches, but no luck so far.

I did however get a result with John Davies birth certificate (Jane Jones, the daughter, husband in Llanfair Talhaiarn. The GRO couldn’t find it doing a 3 year search, but I knew it had to be there. I sent for 10 pdf copies of every certificate that gave the surname of who I thought was his mother, and, bingo. A bit extravagant but I was desperate and fed up after trying to find it for so long. At the moment, while I’m waiting for the elusive marriage certificate, I’m trying to look at Hughes families in Gwytherin to see if I can find a link that would bring Jane Jones over here in the 1860’s. I’ve found out some interesting snippets, but no evidence yet.

It would be lovely to meet you and say hello when we next come over. We’d like to come back over before the weather turns too cold and wet. I’d like to check out the two chapels you mentioned, as well as St Thomas church. You could do some grave hunting with me if you fancy it. We could explore together. Gareth can take the dog for a walk. He doesn’t get as excited as me about graveyards. 
I’ll send you a message before we next drive over to see if you’re free. No worries if not.

Thanks again for sifting through all my waffle.
Wallbanger 

[Woostie]

Hi Wallbanger,

I'd be happy to hunt around the graveyards with you. Let me know when you plan to come over and hopefully we can meet up and see if we can find anything.

Take care