Author Topic: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879  (Read 236 times)

Offline Mjohns86

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Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« on: Sunday 06 September 20 14:09 BST (UK) »
Hi all, first time posting here thank you for any help!

We've been trying to find out more about my great grandfather Frederick/Fred Johnson. We would love to find out Fred's parents' names.

Frederick (maybe Alfred?) Johnson, was born 1879-ish (possibly in Bedfordshire / Luton way).

He married Rosinna (Rose) Parker/Draper in 1901. From what we know, Rose was the daughter of Israel Nelson Parker/Draper (b.1836) and Naomi Smith (b. 1839). Naomi's parents were Henry Smith (b.1813) and Esther Loveridge (b.1814).

I found a census record from 1911 placing them (and 3 of my grandfather's siblings  Violet, Harry and Famie) in Kimbolton. We know they travelled around Bucks, Beds, Herts and Essex, and family rumours are that Fred's ancestors/parents might have been part of a travelling fair.

It would be amazing to find any info that could point us in the right direction, or suggest any other names they might have been using, as I can't seem to find any birth register or earlier docs for Fred or his parents.

Thanks so much for any advice :)

Offline rosie99

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Re: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 06 September 20 18:04 BST (UK) »
Welcome to rootschat

The 1911 census that you mention gives a place of birth of St Albans for Frederick.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VS-ZY5

Do you have the marriage certificate for Frederick and Rosina as that should name their fathers
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Offline CaroleW

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Re: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 06 September 20 23:24 BST (UK) »
Where did the 1901 marriage take place?  Which county?  Did he marry as Alfred or Frederick?

Why are there 2 surnames for Rosina?  Was she previously married?

1911 entry shows first child only born 1906/1907
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Offline Talacharn

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Re: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« Reply #3 on: Monday 07 September 20 11:23 BST (UK) »
Is this them? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VS-ZY5
1911 Census: St Neots . Kimbolton, Huntingdonshire
RG14 . Schedule Type: 70 . Piece/Folio: 141 . Page Number: 1
Affiliate Record Identifier: GBC/1911/RG14/08809/0141/1
Frederck Johnson . Head . M . 32 (Est: 1879) . St Albans, Hertfordshire . Travelling Hawker
Rosina Johnson . Wife . F . 27 . Oxford Water Orton, Oxfordshire
Violet Johnson . Daughter . F . 4 . London Colney, Hertfordshire
Harry Johnson . Son . M . 3 . Chippenham, Wiltshire
Johnson . Daughter . F . 0 . Kimbolton, Huntingdonshire

I cannot find a birth for Frederick/Alfred in St Albans +/-2 yrs of 1879.

Maybe not married legally, but being travellers, over the broom, which may also explain the changes of name and vagueness about place and year of birth.

Offline rosie99

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Re: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« Reply #4 on: Monday 07 September 20 11:25 BST (UK) »
Is this them? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VS-ZY5
Link already given in my earlier post



Presumably this is the birth registration for the daughter without a name
JOHNSON, FAME       Mothers maiden surnamePARKER 
GRO Reference: 1911  June Quarter in SAINT NEOTS  Volume 03B  Page 257
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Offline Mjohns86

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Re: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« Reply #5 on: Monday 07 September 20 13:40 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the warm welcome and thoughts so far, all!

@Talacharn That's them! Thanks re. unregistered marriages that's my thought too, unfortunately. Hoped I was just missing a trick in my research :)

@Rosie99. Yes that's them on the 1911 census, and the unnamed daughter would be Famie. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any marriage or birth certificate/register for Fred in St Albans either (or Bedfordshire more generally, so am guessing there was another name used or they managed to dodge the register).

@CaroleW We think they married in Hertforshire, but that might be because of the London Colney connection (their first child was born there). Re last names, Rosina and many of her siblings/parents generation used Parker and Draper pretty interchangeably during that period from what we know, so it's been fun piecing their records together :)

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« Reply #6 on: Monday 07 September 20 15:56 BST (UK) »
I have been researching a different travelling family and it made me think very differently. Because they were travellers, any birth location recorded on the census might be where they were born, or maybe not. And it might change with each census. By the time they registered the birth and/or baptism, they could be miles away. They may even leave the baptism until reaching their wintering grounds, or a favourite church. A child could register one name, baptised a different name and called something else, which I have experienced. By this time, more were literate, especially the clerics, which helps. Also, there was a requirement to register and you find more registrations and fewer baptisms. The chances are, the children will be registered, the parents maybe not, when the only way is a baptism, especially if both parents were from travelling families.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« Reply #7 on: Monday 07 September 20 16:19 BST (UK) »
I searched the GRO for the names and birth year +/- 2 years with mmn Parker
Harry Johnson . mmn Parker 
Oct-Dec 1907 . Ashton-Under-Lyne . Volume 08d . Page 560
Violet  Irene Johnson . mmn Parker 
Oct-Dec  1908 . Leicester . Volume 07a . Page 182
These were the only registrations offered for each. Maybe they travelled further than first thought.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Looking for info about Frederick Johnson b. 1879
« Reply #8 on: Monday 07 September 20 20:23 BST (UK) »
Christening: Israel Draper . Male
28 Oct 1834 . Bow Brickhill, Buckinghamshire
Father: Nelson Draper . Mother: Esther
GS Film: 88488 . Digital Folder: 007903702
I looked for Israel/Nelson Johnson and Nelson Draper and found nothing that fits.

This seems him in 1861, along with the Smith family:
1861 Census: Stoke Hammond, Buckinghamshire . Leighton Buzzard
Esther Smith . Head . F . 46 . Childerley, Buckinghamshire
Isarel Draper . Stepson . M . 25 (Est: 1836) . Woburn, Bedfordshire . Traveller Brayer
Naomi Draper . Daughter . F . 23 . Crawley, Bedfordshire
Sampson Smith . Son . M . 16 . Wavendon, Buckinghamshire
Hezekiah Smith . Son . M . 14 . Drayton Parslow, Buckinghamshire
Eliza Smith . Daughter . F . 8 . Asterton, Buckinghamshire
Elizabeth Smith . Daughter . F . 4 . Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire
Miah Smith . Son . M . 1 . Stantonbury, Buckinghamshire
Isabella Draper . Granddaughter . F . 1 . Grendon, Buckinghamshire
RG09 . Piece/Folio: 1006 / 128 . Page Number: 17
GS Film: 101816770 . Digital Folder: 101816770 . Image: 00254
Based in Leighton Buzzard, it is near Woburn, which is not that far from St. Albans.