Did Mary Ann Payne 1850 Tiverton emigrate to New York for 1877 marriage?

[Chris Pyne]

I think I need some help from members familiar with US sources.

The question is did Mary Ann emigrate to New York alone prior to 1877 marriage ?
or did the whole family go to New York ?

Accessed via FamilySearch :
Mary Anne Payne ; father John Payne; mother Sarah Downes ; marries James Herbert 3 Jun 1877 Manhattan, New York, US
original source New York Marriages 1686-1980.

I think this event could match with Mary Anne Payne 1851 Tiverton ; father John Payne 1811  ; mother 1820 Sarah Down ; married 1842
with other children William Payne 1842; Elizabeth Payne 1846; Sarah Payne 1848 as per 1851 Census  Cullompton
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC/1851/4355417/00458&parentid=GBC/1851/0009165944

Although Mary Ann's birth  appears to be registered as Mary Ann Pain 1850 Tiverton Quarter 4 Vol 10 Page 259 mother's name Down.

I have found the family in Poplar, Middlesex in 1861.
Class: RG 9/301/169 p11

But there are so many possibilities once all the children become adults in London. I don't think they are there.

thanks
Chris

[*Sandra*]

Wonder if this is a possible ?

FIND A GRAVE

John Payne -    1811 England died 9 Nov 1896 (aged 84–85)
Brooklyn, Kings County (Brooklyn), New York.
burial -    Kings County Farm Cemetery
Brooklyn, Kings County (Brooklyn), New York.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189058035/john-payne

John Payne - 1811 -9 Nov 1896 - aged 85 years. Widower. Labourer.
Hospital Kings County Hospital - Death Place New York City, Brooklyn, New York.
Death City Ward 29 - Cause of Death:   Uraemia
Burial Date 15 Nov 1896   County Farm Cemetery
Certificate Number 20096

Sandra

[Chris Pyne]

 Thanks Sandra,

That looks promising for the father.  So if father and daughter were in New York how many more do I need to say that the whole family emigrated?

[*Sandra*]

For reference this is the 1861 census Bromley St Leonard Poplar Middlesex

John Payne   48 Sarah Payne   41
William Payne   18 labourer.
Elizabeth Payne   16
Mary A Payne   10
Selena Payne   8
Eliza Payne   6
Emma Payne   4
John Down   29 labourer

Sandra

[oldohiohome]

It looks like Mary Ann Payne and James Herbert had a child before they were married:
6 June 1874 Ann Elizabeth Herbert birth in NYC
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27BG-G31
and
a record for the same child with <herbert> as surname.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HQT1-39T2     

but then they disappear. I wonder if they stayed together for very long.

[shellyesq]

There are some Christenings in Jersey City, NJ for children of James Herbert and Ann Pain(e).  https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.fatherGivenName=james&q.fatherSurname=herbert&q.motherGivenName=ann&q.motherSurname=pain&count=20&offset=0&m.defaultFacets=on&m.queryRequireDefault=on&m.facetNestCollectionInCategory=on

There is a Social Security application for Hannah Waldt, b. 17 Sep. 1891 in Jersey City, NJ to James Herbert & Mary A. Payne.

Her widowed mother Ann is with Hannah in 1910, but no other Paynes.  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MKTS-76M

[*Sandra*]

U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index - Hannah Waldt
Hannah Herbert  - Birth Date 17 Sep 1891 Jersey City, New Jersey
Father James Herbert - Mother Mary A Payne
Notes Apr 1943: Name listed as Hannah Waldt.

Sandra

[Chris Pyne]

Thanks very much everyone.

Looks like I have at least 4 children to follow up; Ann Elizabeth; 1874; Sara Herbert 1876; William Herbert 1881 ; Hannah Herbert 1890 ( although that is a long gap between last two)

I am confused by Social Security application for Hannah Waldt. Waldt looks similar to Walds to me? Hannah Herbert (1890) would not have married Albert E Walds until c 1908 judging from the information on 1910 Census. And born 17 Sep 1891 reference looks like a error for Hannah Herbert born 17 Sep 1890  from FamilySearch?

Got It !  It is like the UK 1939 Register, updated later. Original application for Hannah Herbert ( born 17 Sept FamilySearch 1890 / Social Security 1891) by her parents  James Herbert and Mary Ann Payne.  And sometime later, changed to reflect her married name of Hannah Walds/Waldt.

[shellyesq]

I think Walds in the 1910 census was a mistranscription.  It looks like Waldt in the image to me.  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MKTS-7D1  The New Jersey marriage index has Hannah Herbert and Albert Waldt marrying in 1908.  A church record shows that Hanna Celina Herbert & Albert Emile Waldt married 25 Nov. 1908 in the First United Presbyterian Church in West New York, New Jersey.

All the other census records say Waldt. 

1915 NJ state census with her mother living with them - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV93-3C2M

1920 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M4PJ-M46

1930 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X48W-7C1

1940 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4Y7-6C9

Hannah died in March 1976 per the Social Security death index - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JKYQ-Y4W