Author Topic: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers  (Read 770 times)

Offline ABC1876

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 16 September 20 11:13 BST (UK) »
Emily Lilley marries someone called Lynch.

Thank you so much for all this information about EMILY LYNCH  (nee LILLEY) family - at the moment, I'm trying to get to the bottom of all the discrepancies on the NATHAN HOWARD/JOHN HOWARD saga and my mind is exploding with that alone  :)

I'm going to reply next to Johnhood to thank him also - I dont want to appear rude not coming back substantively yet but I'm getting so caught up in this quest that I need to take stock of what I know so far.   I've turned into Miss Marple within the space of a week.

Also, I'm trying to see how I can start a new Topic on this HOWARD family whilst incorporating all the information I've gathered from this great website on my "General Question" topic.

Instead of sitting in the garden - I'm closing blinds and sitting at the laptop !!   I will never again be able to suggest my granddaughter gets off her phone !!!!

Offline ABC1876

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 16 September 20 12:02 BST (UK) »
Nathan married Emliy Lynch in 1897. By 1911 it is recorded they have been married 14 years. For some reason in 1911 and with Ada's baptism it appears Nathan is recorded as John

John

Thank you so much for all your help.   I see you are to bed very late and up very early - this doesnt bode well for me trying to keep my ancestry searching in check  !!

So complicated isn't it but I have a bit more info.

We know that JOHN died in 1917.  I'm not sure his date of birth was definitely 29th January 1883 because I've seen it as 29 January 1874.   I've got his Army record from the Canadian Expeditionary Force - his number was 220371.  He was in the 5th Manchester Regiment for 4 years (not sure yet of the dates).  Theres 40 odd pages of his Attestation Papers - ending with him dying of his wounds on 6 June 1917.  His next of kin is shown as NATHAN  HOWARD Lowe Street Denton - which is correct.   It shows he enlisted in January 1915 , Ottawa, Ontario.   Maybe he didnt have to travel to Ontario, maybe that means his Manchester Regiment sort of "allocated" him to be in the Canadian Infantry - Central Ontario Regiment.

My interest is really in NATHAN.   But it's odd that in December 1922 on Emily Howard's marriage to Harry Winterbottom her father's name is down as JOHN HOWARD Rubber Worker  (but he died in 1917) BUT on the 1911 Census, that John Howard IS a rubber worker.   

I'm going to see if I can find a birth certificate for John to sort his dob out once and for all.   

Oh and also, I'm not sure what you mean about  the John on the 1901 census and those ages you refer to.  I can't see a John on the 1901 Census ...am I misunderstanding?   

In the meantime,

Offline ABC1876

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 16 September 20 16:11 BST (UK) »
AAh I think I see what you mean,   On the 1911 Census its as if the name JOHN HOWARD should have been NATHAN HOWARD.  Which would follow, because on the 1901 Census Nathan is 27 and on the 1911 one he is 37.

I had calculated John's date of birth based on that 1911 Census - which of course is this scenario,  was actually NATHAN's dob - 1874 which I already knew was 1874.     Because I had calculated what I thought was John's, I had come to the incorrect conclusion that they might be twins.    Just shows. 

Ha Ha I bet you're sorry you got into these postings !

I still can't think what's behind that name discrepancy and also why "John" 1911 is a rubber worker and "John" is down as  a rubber worker on the 1922 Marriage Certificate of Emily Howard marrying Harry Winterbottom - when John died in 1917.   The plot thickens.

Incidentally I still can't open a New Topic, it won't let me do that yet.


Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 16 September 20 16:55 BST (UK) »

We know that JOHN died in 1917. 

I'm not sure his date of birth was definitely
29th January 1883 because I've seen it as
29 January 1874

I've got his Army record from the Canadian Expeditionary Force - his number was 220371. 
He was in the 5th Manchester Regiment for 4 years (not sure yet of the dates). 
Theres 40 odd pages of his Attestation Papers - ending with him dying of his wounds on 6 June 1917. 

His next of kin is shown as NATHAN  HOWARD Lowe Street Denton - which is correct.   

My interest is really in NATHAN.   

I'm going to see if I can find a birth certificate for John to sort his dob out once and for all.   


Have you found John's birth entry on GRO indexes confirming his mmn?

Were Nathan's parents John HOWARD & Elizabeth MEADS?

Nathan HOWARD mmn MEEDS
1874  J Quarter in MANCHESTER  Volume 08D  Page 166   

1881c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27P-J18Z
Nathan HOWARD bn 1875 Manchester with parents John & Elizabeth and
siblings Sarah (added- GRO mmn MEEDS), George (GRO mmn MEADS) & Henry (GRO mmn MEADS)

possible marriage
Howard John
Meads Elizabeth
Married 25 Dec 1869 Manchester

John Thomas HOWARD mmn MEADS
1871  M Quarter in MANCHESTER  Volume 08D  Page 164   

John Thomas HOWARD died age 1
1872  D Quarter in MANCHESTER  Volume 08D  Page 97   




Offline ABC1876

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #22 on: Wednesday 16 September 20 17:13 BST (UK) »
Thankyou, yes.    Those are the parents of Nathan Howard and John Howard.    I'm going to be busy tonight (again)!



Offline johnhood

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #23 on: Wednesday 16 September 20 20:15 BST (UK) »
Hi, been a busy day painting my son's shed. Really struggling to find the family in 1891. Think this ref are john's jnr's elder brother's George and Henry RG12 2796 138 3  & Nathan RG12 3161 110 41.

This begs the question--what has happened to parents, John Snr died?, Elizabeth died, both?

I cannot find a birth for John Jnr c 1883 with mmn Meads/Meeds. In fact there is only one John Howard born +/- 2 years 1883 in Manchester and he is John William Howard mq with mmn Jones.

John
HOOD- STAFFORDSHIRE/LONDON/AUSTRALIA
WALKER-LONDON
HIGGS-LONDON
GOSLING-DEVON

Offline ABC1876

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #24 on: Wednesday 16 September 20 20:48 BST (UK) »
Hi, been a busy day painting my son's shed. Really struggling to find the family in 1891. Think this ref are john's jnr's elder brother's George and Henry RG12 2796 138 3  & Nathan RG12 3161 110 41.

This begs the question--what has happened to parents, John Snr died?, Elizabeth died, both?


Thankyou,  Hi there.....Good shed painting weather.

I've got the 1881 Census and this shows  JOHN HOWARD Snr (b) 1850 ish and ELIZABETH his wife and NATHAN aged 6.    It wouldnt show JOHN Jnr because he didnt come along until 1883. 

On the 1891 census I wondered if I'd found NATHAN aged 17 as a Page Boy  living with what looks to be a Church group headed by Frederic Kranso in Didsbury but this could be a complete red herring?

Then 1901 NATHAN is 27 married to Emily.

I hadn't really clocked that there were more siblings because I've been so caught up with John Jnr and Nathan. At least Nathan is a more unusual name to be searching against ! 

I've aged ten years in a week !!  :)






Offline ABC1876

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #25 on: Wednesday 16 September 20 21:10 BST (UK) »
Thanks so much for all your help.  I'm going to take time off to digest all the information you've assisted with, take stock of where I'm up to and decide which lines of enquiry are the important ones  for me and which ones could take me of my original quest given half a chance.  You've been really helpful.

Many thanks.

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: SEEKING Clarity on Dates v Vol & Page numbers
« Reply #26 on: Friday 18 September 20 12:59 BST (UK) »

We know that JOHN died in 1917. 

I've got his Army record from the Canadian Expeditionary Force - his number was 220371. 

He was in the 5th Manchester Regiment for 4 years (not sure yet of the dates). 

Theres 40 odd pages of his Attestation Papers - ending with him dying of his wounds on 6 June 1917. 

His next of kin is shown as NATHAN  HOWARD Lowe Street Denton - which is correct. 

Just in case you haven't come across these details yet.....from F M P don't know if they are available on Anc*y

John HOWARD born Bradford Manchester, Labourer
Service number   8498 Regiment   Manchester Regiment
Attestation date   18 Mar 1902
Attestation age    19 years 2 months
Attestation corps   5th Manchester Regt
Series   Wo 96 - Militia Service Records 1806-1915

Grey Eyes, Brown Hair, 5ft 4ins, Scar left forearm

Details of service
??? 49 days
??  1903
Present 1904
Leave Co. 1905
Absent 1906

Added a snippet from the record as not sure of some of the words re: the addresses of his sister/brother and service

and John's burial details from CWGC

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/470083/J%20HOWARD/