Author Topic: Latin to English translation of 16th century document  (Read 520 times)

Offline OzzieJoan

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Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« on: Wednesday 07 October 20 03:42 BST (UK) »
Good morning everyone,

I have recently bought the Court Probate Record for a Will from 1592 and can read nothing more than the name of the man who I hope will turn out to be my 12xg.g.f. Can anyone please recommend a translation service that is actually in operation at the moment? It seems that both Manchester and Leeds University translation departments are down due to COVID.

Does anyone know if one of our Australian Universities have such a service?

Hopefully I will be able to attach a section of the document for reference.

Thanks,
OzzieJoan
MORTIMER Lancs & Yks
DEAN, Birstall and Leeds
PERRY,BROWN,DELL,WILSON,HOWSE,FURBY,CROXFORD,ELLIS,KEMPSTER,DRURY Oxford & Berks
GREGORY,DOOTSON,SEDDON,BOARDMAN Hindley/Westhoughton
COWELL I of Man/Wigan
SHAW Wigan
BROWN Oxford
HOWKINS Oxford
POWELL, Brecon & Mon
ARMSTRONG,BOXALL Sussex

Online Mckha489

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Re: Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 07 October 20 04:31 BST (UK) »
It isn’t Latin

For instance the third line of small writing down says

“Bradford, sicke of body but of”

A couple of lines down it says “forme following”.
If you post the bits after that, which will be the important bits others may help.  But have a go yourself  ;D

If you just keep looking at it, (now you know it is English) You will find words gradually appear.

For instance the word commonly before each bequest is Item. And it is there on the 7th line (not counting the bold heading “ In the name of God”

Item yd (and) it is my will that John
currently concentrating on a number of Staffordshire families.

Offline goldie61

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Re: Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 07 October 20 06:44 BST (UK) »
As Mckha says, this is written in English and not Latin.
You will not need to get it 'translated'.

If you'd like to post, say, the first third of the first page, on here, no doubt there will be people who can transcribe it for you, and then you could have a go at the rest. Or if you still can't get it, post a bit at a time for transcription.

The last line of the little bit you have posted says 'younger sonn Thomas Mortimer and...."
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs


Offline OzzieJoan

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Re: Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 07 October 20 07:24 BST (UK) »
Well, isn't that strange none of the 4 "translators" I have asked for a quote has told me that it isn't Latin.
He did have a son Thomas, but his death pre-dated the father; not to say that he didn't have one later in his life.  His son John died the same year as his father but later.
Tomorrow I will chop it up into smaller pieces and post a section for help.
I am of very poor sight and unable to attack it myself. Waiting for Cornea transplants yuk!

Thanks, I will return tomorrow.
OzzieJoan
MORTIMER Lancs & Yks
DEAN, Birstall and Leeds
PERRY,BROWN,DELL,WILSON,HOWSE,FURBY,CROXFORD,ELLIS,KEMPSTER,DRURY Oxford & Berks
GREGORY,DOOTSON,SEDDON,BOARDMAN Hindley/Westhoughton
COWELL I of Man/Wigan
SHAW Wigan
BROWN Oxford
HOWKINS Oxford
POWELL, Brecon & Mon
ARMSTRONG,BOXALL Sussex

Offline goldie61

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Re: Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 07 October 20 09:44 BST (UK) »
Well, isn't that strange none of the 4 "translators" I have asked for a quote has told me that it isn't Latin.

OzzieJoan

Were they going to do this for a fee?  ;)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline OzzieJoan

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Re: Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 08 October 20 03:10 BST (UK) »
Oh, yes indeed, Goldie. One quote which didn't comment on the language was $140.

Yesterday I spent a long time trying to find a 16C alphabet with comparable modern letters alongside. It took a long time as all others just gave a single image for each letter. But finally I found just what I needed and will attach it on here in case anyone else out there has need of it.

I am half way through my attempt and plan to continue. At the end I will post what I think I have managed to find, together with the relevant original section for the many corrections it will surely need.

Perhaps today I will also see if I can find common phrases, similar to that which Mckha quoted "Item yd (and) it is my will that John". I see there are several instances of just a single letter being used and think they might be short forms of simple phrases.

I don't think it is my 12 x g.g.f. as I have yet to see the name of his spouse. Fingers crossed on that one. But I am enjoying the challenge  :D

So, here is the alphabet I mentioned.
Thanks and I shall return,
Joan
MORTIMER Lancs & Yks
DEAN, Birstall and Leeds
PERRY,BROWN,DELL,WILSON,HOWSE,FURBY,CROXFORD,ELLIS,KEMPSTER,DRURY Oxford & Berks
GREGORY,DOOTSON,SEDDON,BOARDMAN Hindley/Westhoughton
COWELL I of Man/Wigan
SHAW Wigan
BROWN Oxford
HOWKINS Oxford
POWELL, Brecon & Mon
ARMSTRONG,BOXALL Sussex

Offline goldie61

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Re: Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 08 October 20 04:38 BST (UK) »
You should have asked!  :)
There would be lots of people here who could have steered you towards 'The Secrtary's Hand' style of writing.
Perhaps you had fun searching for it.
You certainly found an interesting one that gives several variations for each letter. Always useful.
We look forward to seeing how you got on.  :)

By the way, the word after 'Item' in the piece you posted is 'yt'.
Here, the y is the equivalent of an 'i'. This is found quite frequently.
So this yt = it - 'it is my will .......'

'y' was often also used as what is called a thorn, and stands for 'th' (it never was 'ye old village tea shop'!)

 So you get 'ye' - the; sometimes 'yt' - that; etc
etc.

2 classic hints:
'S' was often written as a 'long s', which to us can look like an f, especially if it was 'double s'.
The lower case letter 'c' in secretary's hand looks like a modern day 'r'. An easy one to trip up on.
Both  these come in the word after 'Bradford' on line 4.
A 'long s', 'i', 'c' (which looks like an 'r'), 'k' and 'e', so 'sicke'.
So he's 'sicke of bodie.......'

Good luck!
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline OzzieJoan

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Re: Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 08 October 20 04:46 BST (UK) »
 :) Yes, Goldie, and still having fun. This morning I have fallen over "The Secretary's Hand" and added lots of abbreviations and common phrases to my knowledge bank.

Back soon, I hope.

MORTIMER Lancs & Yks
DEAN, Birstall and Leeds
PERRY,BROWN,DELL,WILSON,HOWSE,FURBY,CROXFORD,ELLIS,KEMPSTER,DRURY Oxford & Berks
GREGORY,DOOTSON,SEDDON,BOARDMAN Hindley/Westhoughton
COWELL I of Man/Wigan
SHAW Wigan
BROWN Oxford
HOWKINS Oxford
POWELL, Brecon & Mon
ARMSTRONG,BOXALL Sussex

Offline goldie61

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Re: Latin to English translation of 16th century document
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 08 October 20 04:53 BST (UK) »
added a bit to my previous post
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs