Martha Downs

[rosie99]

The only Joseph Barnes I found born in 1852 died in the same year. So I don't know why J states he was  on there, did the census recorder mishear the place of birth given? Could Lewes Brighton be mistaken for I ofW?

It is possible that 'your' Josephs birth was never registered, many were not in the early years of registration. 

Forms would have been filled in for the census enumerator to collect and then copy details on to the returns we can see.  The form that we see in 1911 was completed by his wife.

[Little Nell]

What does Joseph give as his father's occupation on his 1876 marriage certificate?  If it is vaguely related to seamanship then the 1852 certificate might be correct.  But that is then at odds with the gipsy labourer.

Looking at the variation in birth places, Joseph is not consistent.  Perhaps he didn't know where he was born.  Brighton is a short distance along the south coast from Lewes, but there is no way that it could be mistaken for the Isle of Wight.

Have you followed up on his army record at all?  When did he leave the army?

Nell

[jrainbrim]

The only Joseph Barnes I found born in 1852 died in the same year. So I don't know why J states he was  on there, did the census recorder mishear the place of birth given? Could Lewes Brighton be mistaken for I ofW?

It is possible that 'your' Josephs birth was never registered, many were not in the early years of registration. 

Forms would have been filled in for the census enumerator to collect and then copy details on to the returns we can see.  The form that we see in 1911 was completed by his wife.

The 1911 was filled in by his daughter Mary.

[jrainbrim]

What does Joseph give as his father's occupation on his 1876 marriage certificate?  If it is vaguely related to seamanship then the 1852 certificate might be correct.  But that is then at odds with the gipsy labourer.

Looking at the variation in birth places, Joseph is not consistent.  Perhaps he didn't know where he was born.  Brighton is a short distance along the south coast from Lewes, but there is no way that it could be mistaken for the Isle of Wight.

Have you followed up on his army record at all?  When did he leave the army?


Nell

Ah ha! Samuel is a sailor!,
Think this might mean that the family I found on 1861 census, is not belonging  to me. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. I do not know when he left the army. I cannot find a record yet.
Thanks for helping me.
Jude.

[rosie99]

Did Josephs birth certificate mention where he was born.  Could you please give the date of birth

[jrainbrim]

Did Josephs birth certificate mention where he was born.  Could you please give the date of birth

January 1852 Lewes Sussex.

[Little Nell]

I'm making a few assumptions here based on the information you have given over the course of this thread.  The first is that the birth certificate you have is for

Joseph Barns (as per FreeBMD), birth registered March quarter 1852 Lewes registration district. 

He therefore could have been born in any of the following localities, all of which lie within the Lewes Registration district:

Alciston Barcombe Beddingham Berwick Bishopstone Chailey Chalvington Denton Ditchling East Blatchington East Chitlington Falmer Falmer Firle Glynde Hamsey Iford Kingston near Lewes Lewes Newhaven Newick Ovingdean Peacehaven Piddinghoe Piddinghoe Plumpton Ringmer Ripe Rodmell Rottingdean Seaford Selmeston South Heighton South Malling Southease Stanmer Streat Tarring Neville Telscombe West Firle Westmeston Wivelsfield

That's a lot of possible places where Joseph might actually have been born!

You also say that it gives his father's occupation as a sailor, mother's maiden name Downs.

There is a baptism as Ditchling on 28 March 1852 for a Joseph Barns, son of Samuel and Martha Barns.  The father's occupation is travelling hawker. This is the only baptism for a child of Samuel & Martha Barn(e)s in Ditchling.  By their very nature, travellers do not often stay in one place for very long so tracing their movements after this is not going to be easy.

I cannot find a Joseph Barnes (with the 'e') birth registration in the Lewes district in 1852, so I have to conclude the one I gave above is the same one that you found and for which you have the certificate.

I note also that you say the writing is not clear on it.  I can't see how hawker could look like sailor, but I might be wrong.   

There is a birth registered in the Rye Registration district for Daniel Barns, September quarter 1854, mother's maiden name Downs.  There is a baptism for a Daniel Richard Barns at Udimore on 1st October 1854, parents Samuel and Martha Barns whose abode is listed as Brighton.  Samuel is a chair mender.

So the 1861 census entry showing Samuel, gipsy labourer, aged 66 with a son Joseph aged 8 living in Portsea would be for the father and son shown in the 1852 Ditchling baptism. 

Following up on the Walter Barnes in rosie's post (reply no 16 on Monday) whose mother's maiden name was shown as Downes, there is a baptism in Broadwater on 1 April 1860 for Walter Barnes, son of Samuel Barns, a traveller and Sarah .  Since that 1861 census entry for Mary, Elizabeth, William, Daniel, Kate & Walter is for Portsea Workhouse, there are no relationships to go on.  This is getting more and more convoluted.

This sort of puzzle demonstrates how important every scrap of information might be when trying to sort out which lead might be the correct one - and which might be the one that leads you astray.  You may have to track down every Samuel Barn(e)s and hope to find a Joseph or a Martha as well.

You still have not said when Joseph died.  I don't suppose there is any chance that he survived until 1939?

Nell

[jrainbrim]

I'm making a few assumptions here based on the information you have given over the course of this thread.  The first is that the birth certificate you have is for

Joseph Barns (as per FreeBMD), birth registered March quarter 1852 Lewes registration district. 

He therefore could have been born in any of the following localities, all of which lie within the Lewes Registration district:

Alciston Barcombe Beddingham Berwick Bishopstone Chailey Chalvington Denton Ditchling East Blatchington East Chitlington Falmer Falmer Firle Glynde Hamsey Iford Kingston near Lewes Lewes Newhaven Newick Ovingdean Peacehaven Piddinghoe Piddinghoe Plumpton Ringmer Ripe Rodmell Rottingdean Seaford Selmeston South Heighton South Malling Southease Stanmer Streat Tarring Neville Telscombe West Firle Westmeston Wivelsfield

That's a lot of possible places where Joseph might actually have been born!

You also say that it gives his father's occupation as a sailor, mother's maiden name Downs.

There is a baptism as Ditchling on 28 March 1852 for a Joseph Barns, son of Samuel and Martha Barns.  The father's occupation is travelling hawker. This is the only baptism for a child of Samuel & Martha Barn(e)s in Ditchling.  By their very nature, travellers do not often stay in one place for very long so tracing their movements after this is not going to be easy.

I cannot find a Joseph Barnes (with the 'e') birth registration in the Lewes district in 1852, so I have to conclude the one I gave above is the same one that you found and for which you have the certificate.

I note also that you say the writing is not clear on it.  I can't see how hawker could look like sailor, but I might be wrong.   

There is a birth registered in the Rye Registration district for Daniel Barns, September quarter 1854, mother's maiden name Downs.  There is a baptism for a Daniel Richard Barns at Udimore on 1st October 1854, parents Samuel and Martha Barns whose abode is listed as Brighton.  Samuel is a chair mender.

So the 1861 census entry showing Samuel, gipsy labourer, aged 66 with a son Joseph aged 8 living in Portsea would be for the father and son shown in the 1852 Ditchling baptism. 

Following up on the Walter Barnes in rosie's post (reply no 16 on Monday) whose mother's maiden name was shown as Downes, there is a baptism in Broadwater on 1 April 1860 for Walter Barnes, son of Samuel Barns, a traveller and Sarah .  Since that 1861 census entry for Mary, Elizabeth, William, Daniel, Kate & Walter is for Portsea Workhouse, there are no relationships to go on.  This is getting more and more convoluted.

This sort of puzzle demonstrates how important every scrap of information might be when trying to sort out which lead might be the correct one - and which might be the one that leads you astray.  You may have to track down every Samuel Barn(e)s and hope to find a Joseph or a Martha as well.

You still have not said when Joseph died.  I don't suppose there is any chance that he survived until 1939?

Nell

Thanks for all this Nell, I really appreciate it. I'll check on what you have given me.
Joseph died 1924 in Aberdare.
Jude

[jrainbrim]

I thought I lost it but,  i have found Josephs birth certificate in another file.
Joseph was born in Ditchling which is in the Lewes district.
Mother Martha.
Maiden name looks like Downs on certificate.
Samuel Barns, his father, occupation is not stated on my copy of the BC.
Could you send me copies of info you have please?

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