Author Topic: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851  (Read 2438 times)

Offline DudelsackHogg

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Re: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 21 October 20 06:45 BST (UK) »
Yes, the more I look at the names in the article it looks less likely there is a direct connection.

How I got to this article was searching for Elisabeth Hogg (1810).
I know what happened to William (1809) and Elspeth (1813) but not Elisabeth.

Searching for her led me to the 1841 Census that has an Elizabeth Hogg living at the Boathouse. The dates roughly worked but as Forfarian pointed out the 1841 census dates are rounded down so the dates probably don’t tie in so well as I first thought.

In all likelihood she married and that is the reason I can’t find her easily. A positive, is that I can eliminate that connection, and focus elsewhere.

I think it’s a case of wanting a good story to tell, and to have a connection to it. Although, I would imagine that it was a very big story at the time, especially for my relatives living down the street and sharing the same name.

I’m really enjoying this journey. When things click together it’s great, it’s a detective mystery and really quite addictive.

Being able to put a face to this story is wonderful, thanks for posting the photographs. It really brings things to life. Tommy looks like quite a distinctive character.

I'm really impressed with the response from everyone. Thank you.

I’ll continue to piece the puzzle together.

Offline DudelsackHogg

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Re: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 21 October 20 08:19 BST (UK) »
Elisabeth Hogg found.

She married a Henry Taylor - she appears in the 1841 Census as Betsy Taylor
Died 13.05.1872 - Age 60
Death certificate confirms parents as Andrew Hogg (Land Steward) and Elisabeth Davidson

So I can now say for certain that the Elizabeth Hogg at the Boathouse is not the daughter of Andrew.

Still looking at the Boathouse case and their trees.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Hoggs and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 21 October 20 09:23 BST (UK) »
Just a note to say that I reported the missing index listing of Andrew Hogg's baptism, and Scotland's People replied to say that they agree that he is missing from the index and the omission will be corrected soon.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline DudelsackHogg

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Re: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 21 October 20 13:34 BST (UK) »
Thanks for that. I hope they gave you your 6 credits back for reporting the error.

Fantastic to see the actual record.


Offline DudelsackHogg

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Re: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 12 May 21 13:03 BST (UK) »
I have hit a wall in my family tree so I looked again at the Thomas Hogg trial to see if it helps with my family tree. It ultimately didn’t, but I did get a pretty clear picture of Thomas and the Roxburgh Hogg’s.

I thought I would share what I found to help anyone else who may be connected to this line.

To recap the names in the Kelso Chronicle Article - Trial of Thomas Hogg for Murder dated 13th June1851

Thomas Hogg, tackman of fishing at Roxburgh
Agnes Laidlaw or Hogg wife of Thomas and alleged victim
Betsy Legget a girl of 12. Was the niece of Thomas Hogg and has lived in the house since 5.
Elizabeth Yeoman or Hogg - neighbour - Betsy Hogg - ‘Thomas Hogg is a first cousin of mine’
Charlotte Lamb - servant to Thomas Landreth - knew Thomas lived a little from the boathouse. Bought whisky for her master.
Agnes Grey - neighbour
Elizebeth Heron - lived at Roxburgh Cottage
John Hogg - joiner in Roxburgh - ‘am a relation of the prisoner’
Walter Mitchel - mason at Roxburgh - was called to the boathouse by Mrs Yeoman,
John Campbell - was with Walter Mitchel and saw body lying on the floor.
Mr William Laidlaw - the schoolmaster
Grace Laidlaw - sister of the deceased and servant at Spylaw


Here is what I found out:

Agnes Laidlaw.  Her parents were William Laidlaw and Helen Waldie. I think this is her in the 1841 census. Which would put her at 20-24 in 1841. So 30-34 when she died.

1841 - Agnes and Helen Laidlaw
https://www.scottishindexes.com/41transcript.aspx?houseid=80304011

I was able to find her sister Grace Laidlaw, who was described in the article as servant at Spylaw.

1851 - Grace Laidlaw
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=79309019

Conveniently it says in the entry ‘to marry Andrew Miller’. I then looked up her death certificate to get the names of both Agnes and Grace’s parents. I don’t see any connection to William Laidlaw the schoolmaster.

Grace Laidlaw did go on and marry Andrew Millar.
1861 - Andrew Miller - Grace Miller married 18 April 1856 at Sprouston
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=79305043

Thomas Hogg, the accused, was born in Roxburgh on 10 Oct 1802. He was the son of George Hogg 17 Sep. 1758 and Janet Cranston 8 Oct. 1762. Thomas died 28 March 1866.

1841 - Thomas Hogg
https://www.scottishindexes.com/41transcript.aspx?houseid=80305031

Janet 80 - Thomas’s mother - Spirit Dealer
Thomas 36
Elizabeth Hogg 30 - I believe this Elizabeth is actually Thomas’s sister Betty, born 11 July 1805 Roxburgh and died 29 April 1847 Roxburgh.

1861 - Thomas Hogg - widower.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=80302025

Betsy Legget was the daughter of Janet Hogg 26 Aug 1798 - Thomas’s sister. Betsy was born 15 Jan 1838. It looks like Janet died in 1845 so would explain why she was living with her uncle. Janet married Robert Leggat in 1829. Betsy Leggat married John Lang 23 Dec 1859. They stayed at the boathouse.


1851 - Elizabeth Leggat
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80302030

1861 - Elizabeth Lang
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=80302026

Elizabeth Yeoman (Hogg) - was born around 1832, the daughter of John Hogg 04 Apr 1790 and Elizabeth Hume 18 Sep 1794. She was not a ‘first cousin’ rather the ‘first cousin once removed up(m)’.  Elizabeth was married first to Thomas Yeoman and later William Sawers. She died 16 Jun 1902 in Roxburgh.

1851 - Elizabeth Yeoman and Thomas
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80302029

1861 - Elizabeth Yeoman and William Sawer
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=80302018

John Hogg,  joiner ’ am a relation of the prisoner’. Was the father of Elizabeth Yeoman (Hogg) and the first cousin of Thomas Hogg. John was born 04 Apr 1790, the son of William Hogg 10 May 1750 and Agnes (?).  John died 16 Feb 1875 in Roxburgh.

1841 - John Hogg
https://www.scottishindexes.com/41transcript.aspx?houseid=80305008
1861 -John Hogg
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80302008
(The 1861 census also shows William Sawyers as a lodger here. Almost certainly the same William who later marries Elizabeth Yeoman.)

William Hogg, also a joiner (1750) - was John’s father and the brother of George Hogg, fisherman (1758- Thomas’s father). Their parents were Henry Hogg (abt. 1830) and Margaret. 


It seems Thomas Hogg and Agnes Laidlaw were not married for very long before her death in 1851. They must have married some time between 1841 and 1851 and Agnes appears to be much younger than I thought when reading the newspaper article. If that census entry is the correct one, then she would have been only 30-34 at the time of her death. I had pictured her as much older.

I hope this helps anyone who may have a connection to the names.

Offline LowrieT

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Re: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #14 on: Friday 09 July 21 21:32 BST (UK) »
i enjoyed reading all that.   Isn't Family History fascinating.

Anderson, Baxter (Kirk Andrews on Esk), Goodfellow, Hunter, Lowrie, Hume of Hume, Dixon, Weatherston, Weddell, Clazy.   Trotter, Happer, Gillie  all Berwickshire or Roxburghshire, Scotland

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 10 July 21 03:56 BST (UK) »
Interesting story and fantastic research and contributions
I'm really impressed by how you lay out all the facts you know and queries then came back with a summary for each person .& Recap of the case

I hope you manage to tie up all your HOGG loose ends.

Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline DudelsackHogg

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Re: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 21 July 21 10:44 BST (UK) »

Thanks. I have been slowly going through the Kirks Sessions hoping to find a clue to my family.

The boat house is mentioned a couple of times - the Hogg’s spirit dealing perhaps meant the boat house was a place that loosened inhibitions. I’m sure I read of boys fighting and drunkenness but I didn’t note down the entries and I can’t find them now.

I did note down the irregular marriage of Thomas and Agnes:

Roxburgh kirk session, Minutes (1843-1873), CH2/314/4

Image 23

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/virtual-volumes/volume-images?image=23&volume=CH2/314/4&volume_info=Roxburgh%20kirk%20session&volume_short_desc=Minutes%20%281843-1873%29%0D%0A&record_id=5617&rex_uid=REX00331&related_places=GAZ00961&placename=Roxburgh

21st November 1847 - Kirk Session compeared Thomas Hogg and Agnes Laidlaw for their irregular marriage at Coldstream Friday last.

So they weren’t married very long before Agnes died. Just over 3 years.


I also noted some of the other names:

Image 27 - 14th November 1848
Thomas Yeoman and Elizabeth Hogg - irregular marriage - produced a certificate of marriage dated 17th Aug 1848

Image 47 - 7th October 1855
William Sawyers and Elizabeth Hogg  - anti-nuptial fornication

Image 49 - 1856
Andrew Millar - Grace Laidlaw - fornication

Image 61 - 3rd April 1859
Betty Leggat fornication with John Lang Blacksmith 



As for my family, I found the irregular marriage entires of both my 5x and 6x ggf and the death certificate of Elisabeth (Betty) Davidson. The entry for Elisabeth I’d made an assumption about in my first post was wrong. She was actually born 20th October, 1782 in Kelso, the daughter of William Davidson and Elisabeth Redpath and died 27th May, 1860.

I found out she had and irregular marriage with Andrew Hogg dated Coldstream October 3rd 1808 and 8 months and 17 days later their son William was born.

This cast doubts on the Andrew (whose baptism is noted in my first post - born to Andrew and Elspeth in Jedburgh 1776) as being the father to my Andrew. The Elspeth fits - Andrew and Elizabeth were clearly following a naming pattern evidenced by them naming their daughters Elizabeth and Elspeth - but the first born is named William and I would expect it to be Andrew.

I have very little firm information on Andrew, he’s still a mystery. I have found him twice in the Kelso Kirk Sessions:

Kelso kirk session, Minutes (1800-1833), CH2/1173/19

The first - Image Number 157 - 1809
Is the irregular marriage of Andrew Hogg and Elisabeth Davidson. “having paid double fees they were declared married persons in presence of the session.”

Is that unusual to pay double?

The second is a bit more intriguing:

Image Number 159 - 1809
Andrew Hogg -  where he stated the case of Anne Dickson. I do wonder why he is stating the case and how unusual this is.

“Anne Dickson a single person who being interrogated deponed that on the 16th Dec last she brought forth a child of which child she declares William Johnston Woodkeeper at Fleurs to be the father.”

Anne and the child she brought forth is also a mystery. I was hoping I could find a clue here but so far I haven’t been able to crack who she and her child are.

There is a Wiliam Hogg and Bettie Dickson ( I noted in a list of communicants an Elspeth Dickson but can't be sure it's the same person) who have two recorded children Bettie b.1743 and Alexander b.1745. I do wonder IF Bettie had an illegitimate son around 1775, and it is a concealed illegitmacy eg raised by the grandparents then the naming conventions would fit. It might explain why Andrew is sympathetic to the case of Anne Dickson. But really this is just a theory.

My next step is to try one of the DNA tests and see where that takes me.

Cheers.

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Hogg's and Murder Trial of Thomas Hogg 1851
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 22 July 21 13:34 BST (UK) »
sounds like painstaking search but rewarding
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson