James Murray born Antrim ca1750 poss Carnmoney

[josey]

I am trying to trace the ancestors of Philip Murray of Killeen, Borrisokane Co Tipperary. 1814 - 1864; I know this is the Co Antrim board but bear with me.....

I found this army service record:
Corporal James Murray: 7 Jun 1791 discharge at Belturbet from 2nd Horse [priv 17 yr 6 mo] & 5th Dragoons [priv 2 yr 7 mo corp 6 mo total 3 yr 1 mo]. Discharged 'being  troubled with rheumatic pains and worn out';  5 ft 11 in & age 41 [so  born 1750 ish] in Cannony I think this may be Carnmoney?,  Antrim.

There is a newspaper reference of a James Murray as a witness
Tipperary Free Press 26 August 1829
John Leger, Robert Lambert, George Lambert & J Reade, accused of murdering Daniel Hawkins, John Hogan, John Farrell, Denis Mealy 27 Jun 1829.
I live in Borrisokane. I went along to the funeral of Smith. I saw Hawkins lying dead near the forge after being shot by Leger. " Cross examined "I passed Ledger's on the Saturday before but did not take any notice of it. I heard some people say Leger fired some shots on fair day; I was at mass on Sunday morning; did not hear any of the people speak angrily about Smiths's death; did not  hear any of them speaking about Leger inside or outside the chapel; I believe that there were more men than women at the funeral ; did not see one stone thrown, and I don't think they could have been thrown without me seeing them; don't recollect a stick in the crowd; was in the regiment of the 5th Dragoon Guards; never expressed resentment against Leger".

A Mary Murray as witness - Killeen is on the Portumna road north of Borrisokane.
Tipperary Free Press 29 August 1829
A Mary Murray gave evidence in trial of John Leger for shooting "I lived in Borrisokane on 26th June - my house is on Portumna road other side of Ledger's ; left my house to go to town about 7 in the evening. stopped as  heard firing, my house is about 200 yds from Ledger's"
Clonmel Herald 29 August 1829
"Mary Murray with an infant in her hands that she was taking to her daughter's to whom the child belonged"

The Murrays lived at Killeen just north of Borrisokane. A James Murray appears in the 1827 Tithe Applotments with 5 acres.

I think but cannot prove that James of Killeen is the grandfather of Philip.

Questions;
*So what are the chances that the James Murray born Co Antrim ca 1750 discharged from 5th Dragoons be that same as James Murray in Co Tipperary in 1829 who had been in the 5th Dragoons? James was tall at 5 ft 11 in as was Philip on discharge 6 ft 0 in.
*Does anyone have any knowledge of James Murray born ca 1750 of Carnmoney, Co Antrim?

Thanks for any help and pointers.

[jason mac]

You should try the Family Search website which has the Carnmoney records transcribed.  There are a quite a few Murray families in the Carnmoney Church of Ireland registers.  I am not sure whether any Murray families appear in the Carnmoney Presbyterian records.

[josey]

Thank you for the pointer jason mac, I will take a look.

[josey]

Drew a blank with those records, jason mac, sadly.

BUT - I have found a couple of other references to James Murray of the 5th Dragoons at https://www.nationalarchives.ie/
[1]
Reference:CSO/RP/1834/4606
Date: 27 Nov 1834
Memorial of James Murray, formerly of the 5th Dragoon Guards, Borrisokane, County Tipperary, to Richard Wellesley, 1st marquis Wellesley, Lord Lieutenant, calling for the appointment of his second son to the water guard service; describing himself as an ‘old soldier’ of 28 years’ service, he notes that his elder son is also serving the crown in the 61st Regiment of Foot in Ceylon [Sri Lanka]. Also damp press copy reply from Lieutenant Colonel Sir William Gosset, Under Secretary, Dublin Castle.
Extent:2 items; 4pp
[2]
File of documents concerning an application from Murray for appointment of his son to the police constabulary of County Tipperary. Includes letter from Maj William Miller, [Inspector General of Police in Munster], Cork,[County Cork], to Lieutenant Colonel Sir William Gosset, Under Secretary, stating that he cannot accede to a request for the appointment to the police of the son of James Murray, late of the 5th Dragoons, on account of his ‘being a married man’
Reference: CSO/RP/1834/906
Date: c1 Jan 1834-26 Feb 1834
4 items; 6pp

This is no doubt the same man as in my first post. It would be so great if the documents name his sons.....my ancestor Philip married in 1832 [he enlisted in the 87th regiment in 1837] so could be the son for whom James in 1834 was seeking employment, even though as James was born ca 1750 I think he may be the grandfather. 

Does anyone know if it is possible at the moment to get copies of documents like this from the archives? I cannot see any link, apart from a price list, on the website where copies can be ordered. I have emailed them. Thanks for any help. 

[josey]

I have emailed the National Archives of Ireland again with a copy request as they opened on May 10 2021. Meanwhile, does anyone know of a researcher who will take commissions to copy documents? Thanks.

ADDED: Since my first post I found reference to a James Murray who was in the 5th Dragoons who was born in Nenagh, Co Tipperary who is much more likely to have been the man in Killeen, Borrisokane.

WO 121 box 0055
Discharge 24 May 1802 aged 40 from 5th Dragoon Guards, being deaf and and worn out in foreign and home service; born NENAGH, Co Tipperary, farmer [so born ca 1761/2]; Dragoons from 1787 - 1802
Then discharged from 11th Royal Regiment of Veterans on 24 Jul 1814 when regiment was disbanded. Age 53 [so born ca 1761] 5ft 11 in dark brown hair grey eyes dark complexion RRV from 1802  -1814

[josey]

Just an update; I got the copies of the National Archives documents listed in reply #3, sadly the sons are not named and there are no more details about James himself. However the memorials are in his own handwriting and signed, so it is amazing to see the handwriting of my great great great grandfather!!

And who knows, the Carnmoney James may be father to the Borrisokane James - both in 5th dragoons. Always more to research....