Being a Joiner in 1850's

[Horsley2016]

Good afternoon all.

Having thought I'd cracked a particular puzzle regarding family names, I decided to bite the bullet and order 2 birth certificates of siblings that date from 1852 and 1854. On the former the Father is a 'Labourer', the latter says 'Hawker' Now I know by marriage certificate details in 1871 and then 1876 plus Census from 1851 and 61 he is a 'Joiner.'

Can I assume the worst - that my 'findings' have been incorrect as I am certain of the Joiner bit through the marriage records. I imagine a Joiner would have been a skilled trade learned through apprenticeship? However, this would buck the trend massively in the family as virtually all are unskilled out of work / working dock labourers.... I then wondered if a 'Joiner' may have been someone who worked shipbuilding? I imagine Joiners to be furniture making carpenters?  :?:

If anyone could shed any light on this, it'd be appreciated.
Regards
M

[Joney]

I have a Manx  line where there are several generstions of joiners in the 19th century.  One is recorded in a census as a millwright, another as a 'Ship joiner' in Barrow in Furness where several family members moved for work in the shipyards. This man reverts to being recorded as 'Joiner House' ten years later. Very fine furniture would be produced by a cabinet maker. A joiner would produce more standard items.

[stanmapstone]

From the OED
Joiner: A craftsman whose occupation it is to construct things by joining pieces of wood; a worker in wood who does lighter and more ornamental work than that of a carpenter, as the construction of the furniture and fittings of a house, ship, etc.

This is the entry from "A Dictionary of Occupational Terms"
Joiner: Makes various kinds of woodwork in a workshop (as distinguished from a carpenter, who usually works outside the workshop); fits together pieces of prepared wood (mainly deal, pine, ash, oak mahogany, teak and walnut) by glueing, dovetailing, screwing, tongueing, and grooving, to make doors, windows, staircases, cupboards, panelling, etc. for houses, counters, show cases, etc., for shops, wood-work of railway carriages, tramcars, etc., lighter parts of ships' timbering and ships fittings, etc.,

Stan

[softly softly]

Do you want to run some names past us to double check things out?

John

[ThrelfallYorky]

Many in my mob were cabinet makers and some joiners and carpenters, including ships' carpenters, as well. I'd always assumed that cabinet makers did the finer work, furniture etc, and joiners more everyday, like partitions and staircases, and carpenters slightly rougher stuff perhaps?
But all did apprenticeships, and moved from that to journeymen, usually ending up described as masters, so I'd really assume it was very unlikely, although obviously not totally impossible, that  someone who has working as a labourer or a hawker was also a joiner.
Johnhood's suggestion seems a good idea. I'm sure someone on here can sort it out.
TY

[Horsley2016]

Do you want to run some names past us to double check things out?

John

Thanks John.

I know it happens to us all but I feel so disheartened and frustrated now, having tried to crack this line for over a year! I've raised it on here before trying a round about way and that opened up some routes...

Apologies now for the long post! This is all Liverpool based so offices at GRO are either 'Liverpool' or 'West Derby & Toxteth Park'

I am trying to find the Mother of Gt Gt Grandmother, MARY ANN MORRIS born circa 1854 in Liverpool. Mary Ann married twice. Once in 1871 to Anton Frederickson at St Matthew CoE. She was a Minor and the Father is THOMAS MORRIS listed as a Joiner on both marriage certificates.

She is tragically widowed in 1873 and remarries in 1876 to a James Brown at St Georges CoE. Father is Thomas Morris again, but this time with 'deceased' by his name. Again, Thomas is listed as a 'Joiner.'

I then get terribly muddled! :roll: I can find no siblings for Mary Ann that I can definitely confirm, nor any further information on her Father Thomas and who he therefore might have been married to!

I have unproven records for 1851 Census in No 3 Court, Maddox St, where he might be a Joiner (40), a wife is listed - Mary (37) and a son Thomas (7) too. But I can't link it to anything - I'm clutching at the 'Joiner' bit.

I have a Census record for 1861 at Eldon St, where he is listed as a Joiner age 50 I think, his Son Thomas is a Joiner (17), and a Mary Ann is here (7) There is a funny squiggle in the 'Condition' column of this and I can't decide if it means widowed or not. No wife is listed anyway.

So the dates of those 2 Census add up in terms of the ages tallying but it doesn't help me confirm if it's 'my' family, or who Thomas's wife (and Mary Ann's Mother) therefore is?

I have searched GRO all ends up to try and find 2 matching MMN of a Thomas and Mary, in the hope of finding a common MMN. The only one I found was MMN Kelly (Thomas born 1852) and Mary Ann born 1854 (which seemed to tie in but goes against the Census ages.) There is also a John (1859) and Catherine (1857) listed under Morris / Kelly. However, This is a Catholic line. I recently discovered the Morris/Kelly marriage in Sep 1851 at St Antonys. This goes against the definite information that I have that when Mary Ann married - both times she marries CoE. Annoyingly I can't find anything that links Thomas with 'Joiner.' I'm not too concerned about the CoE/RC switch. As my Nan used to say, the family would "swap religion depending on what day of the week it was!" 


The background of my family tell me they will have been Liverpool based/ from Ireland at some point. It's traditionally a really hard, extremely poor life with poor education, lots of children and pretty much every male a 'Dock Labourer.' So I was surprised when I discovered on Mary Ann's marriage certificates to find her Father a Joiner. 

I went and ordered the 2 MMN Kelly certificates of a son Thomas (1852) and Mary (1854) an that's when I discovered the Father's occupation as Labourer then Hawker 


However, now I'm thinking IF my Census is correct for 1851 / 1861 (I cannot find hide nor hair of Thomas or Mary Ann in 1871 (she married 9th June that year) then it puts Mary Ann born 1854 and a brother Thomas born 1844. I've tried GRO to find a common MMN but cannot find one. I suspect perhaps given the 10 year gap maybe Mary Ann's Mother was by a 2nd wife to Thomas the Joiner?

Looking at my options it's too expensive to even consider taking another punt ordering certificates to rule out possibilities at the moment. I have ordered the Morris / Kelly marriage cert and await that but now don't believe this is my correct family line.


Sorry to have gone on and on!
M

[softly softly]

Hi, did you ever order the marriage certificate re the 1851 given in your previous post. If so did it detail Thomas's occupation.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=837938.msg7033766#msg7033766

John

[Horsley2016]

Hi, did you ever order the marriage certificate re the 1851 given in your previous post. If so did it detail Thomas's occupation.

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?

topic=837938.msg7033766#msg7033766


Hi John.

That’s the one I’m waiting for. But I fear it’s going to say Labourer / Hawker as it’s the MMN Kelly line... 

M

[softly softly]

Let's be a bit more positive whilst awaiting the certificate.

Have you found Mary Ann in 1871 census prior to marriage.

John