Author Topic: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD  (Read 482 times)

Online CaroleW

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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 31 October 20 11:58 GMT (UK) »
I think the fact the his occ on the 1866 birth cert is the same as the 1861 entry is sufficient proof. 

I don't know anything about Australian records but if his birthplace is shown on the death cert - bingo!!
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Online Maiden Stone

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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 31 October 20 20:27 GMT (UK) »

The baptism record does name Frederici and Maris separately but you are correct that he might not have actually been in attendance! I will take another look at the original birth certificate. 

Interestingly, Edgar's birth was registered by Mary's Mother Ann HENRY 'present at birth' her address is 22 Great Orford Street, Liverpool but Edgar's birth place is given as 13 Pembroke Gardens, Liverpool.
So ALL the information seems to have come from the mother Ann and may have been wishful thinking that her pregnant daughter 'Mary CROCKFORD formerly HENRY' was actually married!  Yes could be an Irish marriage or even in New York as this Sligo family had recently returned to Liverpool from about 10 years living in NY.NY.  As a Catholic she might have refrained from a bigamous marriage with her next partner Robert George BENNETT.
=====
No Godparents mentioned from this online record.
No other children found [so far] from this relationship but I have only found Edgar in 1881 and he appeared not to fit well with his other step-siblings.

Name Edgarus Crockford
Age0
Birth Date10 Sep 1866
Baptism Date20 Sep 1866
Baptism Place St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Frederici Crockford
Mother: Maris Henry

Usual information on a Catholic baptism register entry then would be: child's name; father's name and perhaps father's abode or address;  mother's name (and often mother's maiden surname); sometimes that they were a married couple (conjugam in Latin, perhaps abbreviated to conj.); baptism date; sometimes date of birth; priest's name; names of sponsor(s).
Forenames of parents in Latin should be in the genitive case ([son/daughter] of). So in Edgar son of Frederick and Mary, the names of the parents in Latin should be Frederici and Mariae which are genitive singular cases of Fredericus and Maria. "Maris" may be an incorrect transcription or a slip of the priest's pen.  "Maris is the dative and ablative plural declensions (to/for/by/with/from). Translating "Frederici" and "Maris" literally would result in "Edgar son of Frederick to/by/with/from Marys". Obviously Edgar didn't have 2 or more mothers all of whom were called Mary,  ??? so "Maris" is an error. (Please excuse my pedantry.)
Stella Maris/Star of the Sea is one of the titles of the Virgin Mary in the hymn "Hail, Queen of Heaven, the Ocean Star". The hymn would have been sung frequently in Liverpool's Catholic churches and with genuine feeling by families of seafarers. Mary Henry probably knew it by heart.
https://en/wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Queen_of_Heaven,_the_Ocean_Star
https://www.godsongs.net/2012/10.hail-queen-of-heaven-the-ocean-star.html
 
If there really were no godparents it's possible that Edgar was baptised privately, at short notice perhaps at home.

Edgar is an English name. Was it from Frederick's side of the family?
Was Frederick Catholic?
If Frederick and Mary had married in a Catholic church in Ireland before 1864 when all marriages were supposed to be registered and if Fred wasn't Catholic, then the marriage wasn't legal. If that was the case, Fred was at liberty to abandon his wife and marry another woman without committing bigamy. (I'm assuming that Mary was R.C.) Some Irish Catholic women who thought they were married found out their church wedding had no legal standing.

Interesting that the Henry family emigrated to New York and then went to Liverpool. I had a Henry relative through marriage. Her father and one of her uncles were born in New York late 1860's. Her grandparents were Irish-born. The family settled in Lancashire around 1870. 
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Offline markheal

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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 31 October 20 20:49 GMT (UK) »
Maiden stone,
You are a brilliant font of reliable information.

"If Frederick and Mary had married in a Catholic church in Ireland before 1864 when all marriages were supposed to be registered and if Fred wasn't Catholic, then the marriage wasn't legal. If that was the case, Fred was at liberty to abandon his wife and marry another woman without committing bigamy. (I'm assuming that Mary was R.C.) Some Irish Catholic women who thought they were married found out their church wedding had no legal standing."

These Irish marriage conventions [law?] for the marriage to non-Catholics and offspring really do make me think again!
Frederick is presumed non-Catholic but I will now look into his family more fully.

I had known that at marriage the couple were to pledge to bring up any offspring as Catholic, but is this in any Law? Church legal or State legal?
ANSTRUTHER,Worldwide
BENNETT,
BRETT, Sligo
CARNEGIE,
CROCKFORD, Hampshire.
ELLIOT,
GAUNTLETT, Worldwide
HEAL, HEALE, HELE, Chew Magna, Somerset
HENRY, Sligo
MABEY, Dorset
POPE, London docklands,
STANDERWICK, Somerset,
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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 31 October 20 22:59 GMT (UK) »
Maiden stone,
You are a brilliant font of reliable information.

These Irish marriage conventions [law?] for the marriage to non-Catholics and offspring really do make me think again!

I had known that at marriage the couple were to pledge to bring up any offspring as Catholic, but is this in any Law? Church legal or State legal?

I've learned a lot since doing family history, such as legal uncertainties regarding marriages in the 4 countries of the United Kingdom in the 19th century. There was a form of common-law marriage or marriage by repute in Scotland. A person moving between U.K. countries could get caught out. A high-profile case was that of a Catholic woman from England who formed a relationship with an Irishman, who was Church of Ireland, after they met abroad during the Crimean War (1850's). They lived together in Scotland for a while and had a handfasting ceremony, witnessed by her sister, and lived as man & wife. They then went to Ireland and had a marriage ceremony in a Catholic church, telling the priest they had married in Scotland but the wife wanted a religious ceremony as well. The husband soon fell out of love with his wife. He left her and became engaged to a young heiress. When the wife found out she went to law to try and prove he was her husband. She sued him in Irish, Scottish and English courts. It was a cause-celebre. A parliamentary commission was set up to examine U.K. marriage laws c.1870.
The penal laws against Catholics which were in force in the 18th century and weren't relaxed completely until 19thC. included one forbidding a Catholic priest performing a mixed-marriage, a marriage between a Catholic and an Anglican. Penalty was death for the priest. The last time a priest was charged with that offence was in Ireland in 1830's. Once Catholics were allowed to be M.P.s they raised the marriage question regularly in Parliament.
   
Catholic canon law on marriage has been amended a few times over the past 5 centuries. Important papal encyclicals on marriage include "Tametsi" and "Ne Temere".
The pledge to bring up children as Catholic is between the couple, God and the priest. There was a custom in Ireland in 19thC that a child of a mixed marriage followed the parent of the same sex. A study based on 1901 & 1911 Irish census returns looked at the religious identity of children of mixed marriages.
English law upheld the right of a father to decide his child's religion until around 1925. "Family Law and Religion: An English Perspective" by The Honourable Mr Justice BAKER. (My other source for that information is a book on English family law, published in the 1920's which I read many years ago.)
An authority on Catholic family history was Jim Lancaster who died recently. He posted on RootsChat as "Lancaster Jim". He contributed articles to the Catholic Family History Society website.     
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Offline garstonite

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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 01 November 20 07:42 GMT (UK) »
do you know whether Frederick had Crockford family in Liverpool and that is why he went there
could this be family ? - same church for his wife Marys burial

how very sad TWO daughters buried on the same day
Burial: 11 Mar 1749/50 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Cath. Crookford - Dau of John Crookford
    Occupation: Barber
    Register: Burials 1749 - 1754, Page 122, Entry 23
    Source: LDS Film 1656376

Burial: 11 Mar 1749/50 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Eliza Crookford - Dau of John Crookford
    Occupation: Barber
    Register: Burials


Burial: 3 Mar 1780 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Mary Crockford - Wife of John Crockford
    Died: 1 Mar 1780
    Abode: Sea brow
    Occupation: Barber

Burial: 20 Jun 1784 St John, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Crockford -
    Abode: Poorhouse
............................................................................
my point is - could Frederick have married Mary as CROOKFORD - obviously both surnames used in the above family
something to think about
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline Gibel

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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 01 November 20 08:32 GMT (UK) »
The actual entry seen on Ancestry reads in translation by me

Edgar Crockford the son of  Frederick and Mary Crockford ( nee Henry) no godfather and godmother Anne Henry.

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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 01 November 20 09:04 GMT (UK) »
Frederick Crockford of Tasmania seems to have the middle name Henry.
Marriage to Jane Walmsley

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZP-B9D
He marries as a bachelor
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9CH-CG69?i=314&cc=2125029&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQ279-H8CS

1881
There is a court case re Frederick Crockford, gold prospection in Launceston, Tasmania. Mention is made also of Richard Crockford, another applicant plus Mr Weetman.

1889 Letter to the Launceston Examiner re Weetman and Crockford G M Company, signed Frederick H Crockford.
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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 01 November 20 09:51 GMT (UK) »
Edited sorry you already know this

The Edgar Anstruther who died 16 September 1908 address 2 Robertson Terreace Hastings did not leave a will but the administration is to George Elliott Anstruther. Journalist.

The Bennett 1871/1881 family becomes Anstruther in 1891 and George Elliott Carnegie Bennett aka Anstruther was his younger brother.

His birth re 1870 St Saviour Surrey George Elliott Carnegie Bennett mother maiden name Henry

1871 the family are in Southwark Robert G Bennett 51 Annuitant born Perth Scotland, wife Margaret? 32 born Limerick Ireland, George E C age 6 months

plus Robert Henry Bennett  reg 1876 Brentford mmn Henry
Mary Georgina Anstruther Bennett 1879 re. Brentford   mmn Henry
Dominick Compton Anstruther Bennett 1881 reg Brentford   mmn Henry

I cannot find, Fred A S - 1872, Gilbert E A - 1874 or Melgrund A - 1876


 

Offline markheal

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Re: Liverpool Catholic Baptism Sep 1866. Father: Frederic CROCKFORD
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 01 November 20 11:06 GMT (UK) »
amondg, 
You have a good summary of my family who all have a chronic habit of name changing.  I have come to believe that this habit started with the 'father'[probable alias of] Robert George BENNETT born abt 1820 Perth [not traced] who claimed to be a retired Infantry Colonel [not found in Army Lists], disappeared in the mid 1880's in a cloud of family myth of suicide and/or financial collapse and/or cheating at cards!

"I cannot find, Fred A S - 1872, Gilbert E A - 1874 or Melgrund A - 1876"

I am currently working on Fred A S 1872- 1942 [as ANSTRUTHER] who worked about 1901-1913 as a Purser on Isle of Man Steam Packet. I am keen to find any War service.
So far not found on the 1939 Register.
More detective work will be greatly valued!


I too have been unable to find birth records of Fred and Gilbert.

Good news that the birth for Melgund is registered as:

Births Sep 1876   (>99%)
BENNETT    Robert Herbert        Brentford    3a   101
Hanwell RC baptism as:
Melgund Robert Anstruther BENNETT in Hanwell on 2 Nov 1877 [original register].
The middle name ANSTRUTHER was squeezed in almost as an after-thought.

Robert Herbert 'Melgund' Bennett and LATER ANSTRUTHER LATER ANDERSON.

He married as:
Marriages Dec 1921   (>99%)
Anstruther    Melgund E    Cleaver    Lambeth    1d   699

With his wife they ran a small 'working man's cafe' in Oxford in the name of ANDERSON.

Death registered as:
Deaths Mar 1944   (>99%)
Anstruther    George    43    Oxford    3a   2093
Certificate shows incorrect age at 43.  Should be 63.
ANSTRUTHER,Worldwide
BENNETT,
BRETT, Sligo
CARNEGIE,
CROCKFORD, Hampshire.
ELLIOT,
GAUNTLETT, Worldwide
HEAL, HEALE, HELE, Chew Magna, Somerset
HENRY, Sligo
MABEY, Dorset
POPE, London docklands,
STANDERWICK, Somerset,
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk