Author Topic: Marriage details  (Read 670 times)

Offline rob749

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Marriage details
« on: Friday 13 November 20 17:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi Everyone,
Just started to trace my family tree, my ancestors are Welsh with my grandfathers name Jones and my grandmothers maiden name Evans, its proving a very difficult task to get very far at all! I have got back to a 1911 and 1901 Census and got quite a bit of info from that - birthplace, residences, employment etc.

I'm trying to trace marriage records. I managed to get the marriage year approximately from length of marriage on the 1911 census. I found a couple that were the only possibilities in 1892 and bought the certificates. I discounted one completely, but the only discrepancy I can find on the one I think it is, is the age of the bride, it says aged 19 years, if it was the correct one, she would be aged 17 years, the husband's looks good by the profession, and the ages tally on the census.

The residence of the groom is the same area as the census, but I can't find the pre-marriage address on the census the previous year to the marriage. So I'm getting bogged down with detail really. Is it possible for the age to be wrong on the certificate, ie a typo that 17 may have been misread for 19 on the original? Did they marry that young in 1892? Any advice/help appreciated, thank you.

Offline chempat

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Re: Marriage details
« Reply #1 on: Friday 13 November 20 23:34 GMT (UK) »
Yes, they did marry young.  Yes, they gave false ages, both deliberately and by accident.

Are the names of the witnesses any help?

Do you want to give the pre-marriage address so we can try and find it?

Offline goldie61

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Re: Marriage details
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 14 November 20 01:13 GMT (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat!
I can see why you are having to check and cross-check every detail in your family history research. With names like Jones and Evans it must be quite a challenge in Wales!

I'd just reiterate what chempat has said.
People did marry young, at any time in history.
And yes, people were often 'economical with the truth' for whatever reason. Sometimes accidentally, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes because they just didn't know.
You can NEVER take what is written down, even on an official document like a birth or marriage certificate, or Census, as the absolute truth. And ages on death records, whether certificates or burial entries in parish registers, were very often just an estimate of the age of the person who had died.
Does it say on the marriage certificate whether the marriage was by banns or licence?
If it was by licence, there may be some extra information somewhere, especially if she was under 21 (whether that is 17 or 19) as you say.

good luck! :)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs


Offline rob749

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Re: Marriage details
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 14 November 20 10:25 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Chempat and Goldie 61, I've attached the marriage certificate. Assuming its the correct one anyway, I came to a dead end with the grooms address, but I managed to find the address listed against the bride in 1891 census, with the father's name and the brides name listed along with assumed siblings, she was aged 16 on the census document.

I'm assuming its correct as it would be a bit of a coincidence the same name house with the same head of household with daughter of the same name. Although all these names were very common at the time in Carmarthenshire. I just need to be convinced its the correct marriage certificate that I have !

Goldie 61, it mentions married  'by certificate' at the bottom right, is that what you mean?
Thanks for any input, I appreciate it.

Offline rob749

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Re: Marriage details
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 14 November 20 10:49 GMT (UK) »
Sorry, that attachment didn't save properly. I'll try again. The only way it will work is in portrait, so to see it all, it will have to be rotated in your viewer. If you can't see it, please let me know and I will type out the details in the post itself. It won't load, file too big.
Here are the details.
Date 4 Oct 1892
Name: John Owen Jones, 25 years, Weaver, 4 Meiros Street, Drefach, LLangeler. Father - Henry Jones.
Name: Anne Evans, 19 years, Address: Perthiteg, Penboyr. Father - Ebenezer Evans.
Witnesses - James Jones, Benjamin Jones.
Place: Bethel Chapel, Newcastle in Emlyn. Married according to rites and ceremonies of Calvinistic Methodists by certificate. Then names of minister and registrar are listed.

Offline goldie61

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Re: Marriage details
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 14 November 20 20:19 GMT (UK) »
I've not come across 'by certificate' before Rob.
But this previous post on Rootschat explains it.
It is the equivalent of Banns, so no licence to try and find by the look of it.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=696493.0

From what you've written, it looks as though the 2 witnesses were part of the groom's family - well, at least there are no 'Evans' witnesses to see if they can be tied in with the bride. That's a pity.

So it looks like she added a couple of years on to her age at the marriage? Possibly because the groom was quite a bit older than her. Or the age on the Census might be out. Have you found her actual birth date?
If I read your post correctly, the address for Anne Evans given on the marriage certificate in 1892, is  the same address where she, and the father Ebenezer, live in the 1891 Census?
Anne Evans must be a pretty common name in Wales, but Ebenezer not so much.
I would think it must be the same people.
Does it not give Ebenezer's profession on the marriage certificate?
Does it match with his profession on the 1891 Census?

For future reference, if you need to post an image again, as you have found, the maximum size you can post on here is 500kb.
That often means you have to reduce the size of your file.
I usually do this through the photo software on my computer (iphoto on Mac. Not sure on Microsoft).
If you load the image into the photo software, you can then re-save it as a lesser file size. Bit of trial and error to get the image as near to 500 kb as possible. This helps when then trying to read at it after it has been posted on here, as if it's a very small file, when you zoom in on it, it goes all fuzzy and pixelates.
There has to be a help page for this here on Rootschat. I'll see if I can find it.

Added: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
How to post an image here on Rootschat.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Online osprey

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Re: Marriage details
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 14 November 20 21:23 GMT (UK) »
so is this your family in 1901?

Tanygraig, Penboyr RG13/5139 folio 50 pg 10
John O Jones head mar 33 woollen weaver employer b. Cenarth
Anne wife 26 b. Penboyr
Olwen dau 7 b. Penboyr
Harry O N son 3 b. Llangeler
Rachel M dau 1 b. Llangeler

possible for John O Jones aged 23 at Dyffryn Mills in 1891 RG12/4546 folio 81 pg 5

this link gives some background on the local mills

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q1h/

Looking at Cenarth for a John with father Henry,  there's this possible family in 1881 and with a brother James who could be the witness. You didn't give Henry's occupation, so can't be sure it matches.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2W9-BZ9T
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Online osprey

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Re: Marriage details
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 14 November 20 21:33 GMT (UK) »
if that is the correct James, he was killed by a lightning strike in 1895.    :o

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3252874/3252878/113/
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Ayashi

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Re: Marriage details
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 14 November 20 23:45 GMT (UK) »
I have Jones in Wales as well, so you have my sympathies.

Ages should occasionally be taken with a pinch of salt. Some of my lines are very consistent, others not so much. My Welsh lines are not so much. One of mine, Walter Jones, varies his age on census so much that his date of birth was anything between 1805 and 1821- tailored somewhat to each of his two wives (the first being significantly older, the second being significantly younger). He was actually born, or at least christened, in 1808, which matches his eventual death. A difference of two years isn't much sometimes, especially when ages can vary a year depending on whether or not someone has had their birthday at the time. I think at 19 she'd still have needed parental permission to marry (?) so fibbing about that seems odd.

And yes, certificates obtained from the GRO can contain errors because they are copies of the originals. I have a few that have mistakes, such as one that has a marriage date of 1888 when the original image and index are 1887 and another where the middle name was written as Henderson when she was Harrison. If the original wasn't clear it's possible the copy was miswritten, or just a mistake happened. There are a lot of times that the original has errors though, intentionally or otherwise.