Author Topic: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?  (Read 4729 times)

Offline harrygeorge1

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #108 on: Wednesday 25 November 20 19:32 GMT (UK) »
Try going in from the start of the website.

https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history

It says; April 1st 1946

John William Walter Fairlie  and Dorothy Winifred Reid
Widower 24/03/1946          and  Spinster
2 children living                  and    -
birth Chichester Sussex England and Adelaide
Barrister age 55                   and Home duties age 31
father John William Fairlie deceased  and Sampson Reid retired
mother Grace McKenzie deceased  and Dorothy Bannister(?) Field

John was obviously waiting for wife no1 to die to marry wife no 2.
Haynes,Cobb,Welcher,Cox, Buck, Hipwell, Crunckhorn, Searle, Gilbert, (cambs),Lakey,Lavender,Merrington,Rolfe,Larkman (welney), Bell (docking),Haigh, Heselgrove,Bastow,Price,(yorks), Hipperson, Sadler.

Offline Pennines

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #109 on: Wednesday 25 November 20 20:53 GMT (UK) »
I  just have to bob in here - I had to go for a medical procedure today -- nothing to do with Covid!! I seem to have only just come back to life.

I just cannot believe how much you Super Sleuths have found since yesterday -- unbelievable and very impressive research all of you. I am in awe.

 Last time I was involved was pages and pages ago regarding the wife Grace Johanna - and thinking her maiden name may just be the one which suddenly appeared in the electoral registers -- that's reams ago.

harrygeorge -- how on earth are you managing to record all this info pouring forth?

Truly wonderful everyone - you are absolute stars.
Places of interest;
Lancashire, West Yorkshire, Southern Ireland, Scotland.

Online osprey

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #110 on: Wednesday 25 November 20 20:55 GMT (UK) »
is there no occupation given for John William Fairlie?

John William Walter was older than 55 in 1946. He died in Nov 1956 aged 76.

John William Fairlie died 9 August 1916, buried the following day. Retired station master and died of chronic Bright's disease. Age noted as 59, but probably 72.

Given that his mother died when he was a few months old, he possibly didn't know her name.

The first Fairlie bmd record at Chichester is in 1970.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Online osprey

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #111 on: Wednesday 25 November 20 21:21 GMT (UK) »
from the free index on the 1939 register, there is a John W Fairlie, born 1891, barrister, in Hendon, Middlesex with a married Carlotta F born 1894.

Death reg for Carlotta F Fairlie 70 dec qtr 1952 Kensington.

There's a record for a Carlotta Fairlie 50 leaving Bombay in 1937 and heading for 3, Gunter Grove Chelsea.

 ???

Where's that rabbit hole...
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb


Online osprey

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #112 on: Wednesday 25 November 20 21:46 GMT (UK) »
Carlotta Forrest Fairlie of 3 Gunter Grove Chelsea widow died 8 Dec 1952 at Princess Beatrice Hospital Chelsea, probate to Grindlays Bank.

Possible birth 3 July 1881 & baptism 30 July at Simla of Carlotta Forrest, daughter of George & Harrietta Minniken, George Deputy Conservator of Forests.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Online osprey

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #113 on: Wednesday 25 November 20 22:12 GMT (UK) »
there's a passenger list dated August 1939 for the Maloja sailing from Brisbane to London including John Fairlie 58, barrister, & Carlotta Fairlie 57 heading for 5 Gunter Grove.

Carlotta F Fairlie is on electoral roles for 3 Gunter Grove in the 1940s & start of the 50s with Helen G Wilson. Carlotta's sister, Helen Grey Minniken married Duncan William Wilson in 1910.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline mckha489

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #114 on: Thursday 26 November 20 04:18 GMT (UK) »
Could do without Carlotta Osprey!!
Are we assuming some Hanky Panky?!

She was married before

22 Oct 1900 married at Simla to  William Henry DONALD  he was born in 1863 so a lot older.  Two children.
21 Oct 1901 Barbara Elaine DONALD born Simla
23 Feb 1903 Hilary Kathleen DONALD born Simla
1919  Carlotta DONALD age 37  :o , Barbara E and Hilary K 18 & 16 respectively are on their way from London to Colombo.

I have been trying to follow them around. Barbara and Hilary were both riding school proprietors at Newbridge Riding School, Bridge Lane, Hendon.  The first mention in the papers of the school is  19 Feb 1932, but the first mention with their names is 30 July 1937.  They died in Hampshire in 1972 & 1978. Unmarried.

I couldn't resist this - just for flavour. excerpts from the

Hendon & Finchley Times, 20 August 1937

"in six years two Hendon sisters have worked up a flourishing business in the Newbridge Riding School...  At the start of their career they had five shillings in their pockets after renting the four horse boxes which now comprise one side of their stable.... loaned horses etc........Miss Hilary Donald said" We came to England from India where our father had been deeply interested in horses as a hobby. We had spent almost all our lives among horses...Both of us were in good jobs but my firm had to cut down staff and I lost my work. One day ... out for a walk....found this stabling, rented it......Our training had been a thorough one in seven different schools, and our venture has succeeded. [names dropped here] Now the money rolls in to the tune of £1000 a year on average. Sometimes more and sometimes a good deal less..........[have] the side saddle our grandmother used as a girl in India......[Barbara] was a member of the Rajah of Manshi's team playing number three when he used to visit Kulu to play a local team there

The next time I have Carlotta is
1936 Carlotta F FAIRLIE on the Mooltan from Brisbane going to 3 Gunter Grove Occ H.D.  country of last permanent residence, India.  She is on her own.
So if she was in Brisbane, how did she get there? where are the other passenger lists we need?!

In 1937 she has two bookings in March to India, but is crossed out on both manifests so I assume she didn't make the trip.

We then have the 1939 trip for both of them from Brisbane that Osprey posted.  So again, how did they get there?

But what I have been puzzling over is if John W. Fairlie in Hendon with Carlotta in 1939 is the same man as the one who arrived in Fremantle 5 Oct 1940 bound for Sydney, having embarked at Bombay. How did he get from London in September 1939 to Bombay? (Although I suppose if he was able to travel to Australia, there is no reason he couldn't also travel to Bombay).

William Henry DONALD didn't die until 1945 at Kulu
When Carlotta died in 1952 she is described as a widow. William's Widow?  She isn't John WWS's he is still alive!


So the situation is Possibly:-

John W. W. SMITH married Grace Johanna SMITH.
in 1911 John becomes John W.W. Smith FAIRLIE (we presume something to do with his Fairlie aunt and uncle)
by the 1930s Grace is living with her son/sons  as McGregor-Fairlie  (The boys having been given McGregor as one of their names (where did that come from?)
John is not with them because he is flitting about having taken up at some point with Carlotta who uses the name FAIRLIE but I don't see a marriage anywhere so far.

in 1939 Carlotta and John W having been to Australia at least twice in the interim are in London. But not at Carlotta's sister's address (3 Gunter Grove).
1940 - possible arrival of John W FAIRLIE back in Australia without Carlotta

1946 - he marries Dorothy Reid. Lies about his age as she is only 31.  Lies about his place of birth, gives his father's correct forenames, and one of his mother's names which happens to be the same as his first wife's so perhaps that is why he knew it. Gives mother's maiden name as McKENZIE which is his paternal grandmother.

the thing about all of that I am most unhappy about is his place of birth. Why would he do that? I don't see any reason to doubt the Smith to Fairlie change in 1911, and the families of both lots of SMITH.

A look at some of those Indian Wills might be useful.

Online ShaunJ

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #115 on: Thursday 26 November 20 08:50 GMT (UK) »
Re passenger lists from UK to India, bear in mind that many people preferred the overland route by ferry and train to a Mediterranean port, joining their ship there. They won't appear on UK passenger lists.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline harrygeorge1

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Re: Children born in India but where did mum and dad come from?
« Reply #116 on: Thursday 26 November 20 10:18 GMT (UK) »
I  just have to bob in here - I had to go for a medical procedure today -- nothing to do with Covid!! I seem to have only just come back to life.

I just cannot believe how much you Super Sleuths have found since yesterday -- unbelievable and very impressive research all of you. I am in awe.

 Last time I was involved was pages and pages ago regarding the wife Grace Johanna - and thinking her maiden name may just be the one which suddenly appeared in the electoral registers -- that's reams ago.

harrygeorge -- how on earth are you managing to record all this info pouring forth?

Truly wonderful everyone - you are absolute stars.

Never did I think I would end up with all this information when I asked the question. I am truly grateful and amazed.
As for keeping up, I have copiuos notes and have to keep re-reading the comments and trying to link the information. Failing that I ask Mckha489 to dumb it down for me.
Haynes,Cobb,Welcher,Cox, Buck, Hipwell, Crunckhorn, Searle, Gilbert, (cambs),Lakey,Lavender,Merrington,Rolfe,Larkman (welney), Bell (docking),Haigh, Heselgrove,Bastow,Price,(yorks), Hipperson, Sadler.