Re: Help with this one please

[pigletlovesfamily]

Well, your man was not at the Armathwaite Hotel on the 1901 census.

The only other evidence I have for him was in 1901 when he was a footman at Armathwaite Hall, Bassenthwaite, Cumberland.

He might have been there before or after but not then. How did you find  him there in 1901?

Sorry, Gadget, but he was indeed at Armathwaite Hall in 1901.

Annette

He is getting us all to tear our hair out, isn't he? His father was even worse and involved a Will made in 1895 which may never have been proved.  I have the original but it is not listed in probate anywhere. The family who should have inherited knew nothing about it. Very strange.  I only tackle this family in small doses!

[Gadget]

I expect that he was hiding in the broom cupboard when I first found the census entry and came out when I was working on a photo restoration 

I looked through the newspapers of the time but couldn't find anything. I'm assuming that the person giving the occupation to the registrar for his death cert was different from the one giving the info for his burial. Do you know who he valeted for?

Gadget

[Rosinish]

This is when you wish the DC was a Scottish one as it would not only give the place of death but also the usual residence.

What was the occupation of Edward Philip Ashcroft, could he have worked with Charles Edward, if not, he may have got his 'V's mixed up 

Annie

Add...Just noticed his address for burial was Richmond Street 

[pigletlovesfamily]

This is when you wish the DC was a Scottish one as it would not only give the place of death but also the usual residence.

What was the occupation of Edward Philip Ashcroft, could he have worked with Charles Edward, if not, he may have got his 'V's mixed up 

Annie

Add...Just noticed his address for burial was Richmond Street 

I did wonder this too when I searched last night for the informant. But in 1911 he was a Cooper.

[pigletlovesfamily]

This is when you wish the DC was a Scottish one as it would not only give the place of death but also the usual residence.

What was the occupation of Edward Philip Ashcroft, could he have worked with Charles Edward, if not, he may have got his 'V's mixed up 

Annie

Add...Just noticed his address for burial was Richmond Street 

I had added this new address to his notes but not taken any notice. Maybe this was where he worked.
All of this points to me having made an error, until I bought his burial details and discovered  Howard, Herodias Drury 4 November 1924 
Howard, Edward Charles 12 October 1908 
Howard, George Frederick 26 December 1897
Howard, Alfred George 4 February 1894 
This grave had been purchased.
Herodias was his mother, Alfred George his father and GF his brother.

So I do have the right man. Now what? Trace the informant backwards? He was widowed by 1911 and was a Cooper aged 77.
Thanks for your observations.

[Rosinish]

Thinking aloud here...

If Edward delivered his barrels to an hotel & Charles took delivery then it would seem they knew each other but the person dealing with the burial may have assumed Charles to be more than 'just' a valet?

What is the distance between both addresses?

Annie

[pigletlovesfamily]

Thinking aloud here...

If Edward delivered his barrels to an hotel & Charles took delivery then it would seem they knew each other but the person dealing with the burial may have assumed Charles to be more than 'just' a valet?

What is the distance between both addresses?

Annie

I have now traced Ashcroft. In 1841 his mother was living on her own and called Elizabeth Philip, hence his full name, They lived in Shadwell, London. His parents married in 1838 and he was born the previous year.
1856 he married and had 9 kids.
1861 he was a Cooper living in Deptford, Kent
In 1871 EPA was a Cooper, married to Amelia Gray on 30 Jul 1856 in Bethnal Green, and living in Moor St., Burton with their children. His marr. cert says his father was a Cooper, like him.
1881 marr to Frances Greatorex in Burton, married in Jun Q

Shadwell had many Coopers because of the proximity to London Docks,  but I suppose any barrel would suffice if he actually made them. In Burton they would be used to store beer. BTW I cannot yet trace a death for either wife!

Google says the two addresses are a fraction under a mile apart.  Roll on the 1921 census.  This line lived mainly in London, but Charles' father  moved up to Burton.  To my great surprise hubby's relative was living next door, almost, to them in 1891. They were not from Burton either.

[pigletlovesfamily]

Thinking out loud again. I thought that Ashcroft made the barrels, being a Cooper, not delivered them, especially as it was his father's trade. I came across several Coopers in the Shadwell area when I was tracing another line. I do not think he ran an hotel though as he was only a Licensed Victualler. This was not a wealthy family.
Thanks for helping. 

[Rosinish]

Yes, you're correct, I'd been back in 1901 at the 'hotel' 

This is odd to me as I haven't seen an English DC where someone other than a relative was the informant, however, I've seen countless Scottish ones & usually, if the informant isn't a family member, details of some sort are recorded e.g. neighbour/friend/occupant/inmate etc. & often their address so it's odd there's no 'qualification' info. on EPA?

It would be good to find out just what the address at Richmond Street was, except there's no number on the burial record, however, it's worth finding out if there was a pub in the street if nothing else?

Have you found both on ERs?

This is by my reckoning...

You have Charles on 2 occasions as a 'servant' type occ...

1901 - Footman (hotel)
1908 - Valet (on death cert)
1908 - Licenced Victualler (on burial)

Could Charles have been a Valet to Edward as well as being a Licensed Victualler 

Annie