Patrick O'Donnell m Mary Ryan

[Leanne Pethick]

Hi All,

Dad turned 89yo today and while he is still a very young person, his body is giving way.  He was very close to his maternal grandmother, Mary Kathleen O'Donnell and I have spent the last few months of lockdown here in Vic, Aus. trying to find her O'Donnell Ancestors. 

It was Patrick O'Donnell who married Mary Ryan in Kilfeacle, Tipperary who came to Australia in 1865.  What a nightmare it has turned out trying to find their families in Ireland!

I have been focusing on trying to find Patrick's O'Donnell family and after having incredible success with using DNA to find one line of my mother's ancestors, have been trying to do the same.  However it appears that once anyone hits an O'Donnell ancestor, they hit a brick wall. 

A couple of 'cousins' on the other side of the brick wall have kindly given me 'collaborator' access to their DNA results in Ancestry and this has helped (I have Dad and his sister's results as well as a number of my siblings as well).

I have found clusters of matches with various other surnames in their trees (Terrell, Dwyer, Meehan etc) but not been able to link any of them.  I just end up with very separate trees and can't find where any of them connect.

I believe (from selected certificates her in Australia) that Patrick and Mary were both born and married in Kilfeacle, Tipperary.  Patrick's death certificate has parents 'unknown' and they were married in Ireland before they came to Australia (so no parents on marriage cert), so I don't even have a starting place for his parents other than O'Donnell in Kilfeacle. 

I use Ancestry and FTM 2019 as well as FamilySearch mainly, however have also subscribed now to FindMyPast, British Newspapers, Newspapers.com...  but just can't find anything.

Would really appreciate any suggestions or ideas!

[Leanne Pethick]

Going back to basics and have a some questions...

1. The records of their marriage (states they lived in Deerpark, Kilfeacle) and their first 2 children's baptisms, all 3 give the name 'DONNELL' rather than O'Donnell. 
Is this common?  Or is this a different couple and I have the wrong records?

2.  How common was the naming of children after grandparents in Ireland?  Will their children's names be a hint to their parents?

3.  Were sponsors, witnesses, those recorded as 'present' at baptisms and marriages usually family / siblings / parents if alive at the time?

4. Someone told me that there were are no records before 1833.  Can anyone recommend a good 'How to research Ireland' document / tutorial? 

[heywood]

Hello Leanne,
Unfortunately, as you will know, your family just missed out on civil records which began in 1864.

Here is the marriage in Golden parish records 21st February 1860
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632729#page/189/mode/1up
There are Donnell witnesses, John and William, which might help in broadening the family records.

You can see here https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0267 that there are no baptismal records on the site pre 1833 as you have been told.
RootsIreland mentioned on that page  is a pay site and sometimes has records which are not available but I have not checked.

You have the baptisms of the children
John 29th January 1861 - sponsors Edmond Lonergan and Margaret Ryan
Catherine 10th March 1863 - sponsors John Dwyer and Mary Dwyer

If the families used a naming pattern, it was usually the first boy after husband’s father and first girl after wife’s mother and so on but some didn’t do this.

I hope this helps.

[wivenhoe]

Where and when was Mary Kathleen born?
"...his maternal grandmother, Mary Kathleen O'Donnell.."


Where did they arrive in Australia and what ship?
"...Patrick O'Donnell......married Mary Ryan in Kilfeacle, Tipperary who came to Australia in 1865." 

What certificates do you have for BDM events in the life of the people you have named here?

[Leanne Pethick]

Thank you so much for your replies Heywood and Wivenhoe.
I am going to check out the rootsireland website as soon as I finish this reply.

Patrick and Mary had 10 children in total.  The first 2 born in Ireland, the other 8 in Victoria Australia. 

Everyone believes that Patrick and Mary came to Australia on The Donald McKay in 1865.  However the record they believe is theirs has Patrick with an age that is very unlikely, the 2 children with correct ages, and a Mary Dwyer (this info is all in the attached doc) who may be the Mary Dwyer who was one of the sponsors at Catherine's baptism.   But where was Mary O'Donnell nee Ryan?   Certainly the births of the children give a narrow window of only a couple of years during which they made the journey to Australia.

Patrick and Mary lived in Melbourne for a couple of years then moved to rural Vic where they lived until they died.  Four of their children died in infancy.  Two of the 6 children who lived to adulthood remained in the Castlemaine area and the other 4 moved to Western Australia within a few years of Bridget dying. 

I have attached a document that includes the certificates that I have bought, and at the top I made a couple of tables - 1 that summarises the info in the certificates, and one to try to narrow down the years when they were born.
 
My very sincere thanks again for your time.  Appreciate any and all suggestions

Oops - the doc was 3mb and wouldn't attach - so I have included the summary tables only.

[heywood]

Thank you for the charts.
Do the Australian records confirm Mary’s maiden name of O’Donnell?

Error - Ryan

[Leanne Pethick]

Ahh Mary's maiden name was RYAN.  Her married name was O'Donnell. 
Yes, all certificates in Australia have 'Formerly Ryan'.

[heywood]

I made a mistake there - sorry!

I was just wondering if Mary Ryan O’Donnell had died in Ireland and Mary Dwyer had become Mrs O’Donnell - re the voyage you found.
If though the children were born to Mary Ryan then that theory is wrong   

[wivenhoe]

Mount Alexander Mail 23 Jul 1881 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198696008?
Neglected Children. — Michael William O'DONNELL (5 1/4 years), Joseph O'DONNELL(II years), and Margaret O'Donnell (7 years), all neglected children...........