Author Topic: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)  (Read 2837 times)

Offline Hwby

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Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« on: Monday 30 November 20 12:18 GMT (UK) »
Hi all,

I posted recently in the Ayrshire board about a Charlotte McPhail, and after making a lot of progress with her, I promptly got very stuck on her husband. I have their marriage register, I have some census information, and I have some poor law applications. Here's what I know:

Henry and Charlotte married November 1866, and listed his age as 24, giving him a birth year of 1841/42. His parents are listed as David Dickson, an agricultural labourer, and Elizabeth Clark, both dead. His usual residence is 'Wishaw station'.

Their daughter Jeanie was born April 1867. Charlotte had an illegitimate child before this marriage, Archibald, who later took Henry's name of Dickson. They had several more children, ending with George in 1886. Henry's job is described as an engine keeper and engine man throughout this time.

Most of their children are born in Cambusnethan, but their second son, David, was born in Blackburn, West Lothian, in 1869. They were, however, back in Lanarkshire for the birth of their next child James, born in Shotts in 1872. I know there was a strong mining presence in Blackburn, so they could have moved for Henry to find work.

There are then a number of poor law applications, both by him and by his wife. The first I can find was made by wife Charlotte in August 1877. She lives in Knownoble and Henry is "in jail for assault" and is recorded as being born in Old Monkland. I can't find anything about this jailing.

The next is May 1884, made by Henry, rendered fully disabled by "retention of urine". He lives at Muirhouse Pit, and was again born in Old Monkland. His job is engine keeper, and his age is given as 43, making him born 1840/41. His parents here are David Dickson and Betsy Bark (not Clark) - still both dead. It includes a note of a prior residence being "Knownoble Cleland, paid rent to Mr Dick & Donald McQueen O'Haetur [?], wrought to Mr Dick no 1 + 2 pits, refer to the books of Mr Dick". I don't understand what "wrought to" means here.

After that is another application by Charlotte in December 1889. Her address is 78 Berryhill Rows, Wishaw, and she's applying because "her husband Henry Dickson, miner 50 born Old Monkland, went away to look for work eight days ago - has not heard of him since". This would give him a birth year of 1839, but considering their length of time being married is given as 20, which is off, I think she could have just been rounding  his age.

I have the family in the 1871, 1881, and 1891 censuses. The 1871 and 1891 census give him an estimated birth year of 1845, whereas 1881 gives it 1843. In 1871 they're living in Dalziel, in 1881 in Cambusnethan, and in 1891 in Cathcart, Renfrewshire. Charlotte dies in 1892, in her hometown of Campbelton, Argylshire. Her death is registered there, but the informant is her son David, who gives his address as Berryhill Rows, Wishaw.

He died in 1900 still living in Wishaw, though the register gives his birth year as ~1836. His younger children are living with siblings by the 1901 census. Here his mother is given as Agnes Clark (Thanks Rosinish for the help there).

I may have found him in the 1861 census - a 19 year old Henry Dickson, working as a collier, born in Lanarkshire circa 1842, a boarder with an Irish family in Stevenson, Ayrshire. I'm still not sure if his wife Charlotte left Campbelton with son Archibald, moved to Wishaw and met Henry there, or if Henry was in Campbelton and met her there, moving back to Wishaw to get married a few months before their daughter came along.

It may seem that I know a lot about him, but I can't actually find much in the way of concrete evidence about his life before he married Charlotte, and what happened to him after his wife died. I can find nothing about his parents beyond their names in his marriage register and poor law application, and they were dead by those events.

His children have sons called "Hendry" popping up, so I wonder if he actually went by Hendry rather than Henry, but I have no documents to back that up beyond grandsons' names.

So what I do know:
Born between 1840 and 1845, in Old Motherwell.
Parents are David Dickson and Elizabeth (Betsy) (possible Agnes) Clark (or possibly Bark), both dead by November 1866
Married to Charlotte McPhail in 1866, in Wishaw
He moved at least once to other parts of Scotland, West Lothian, possibly looking for work.
His wife's illegitimate son took his name, becoming Archibald Dickson, and he had a further eight children with Charlotte
He went to jail for assault in 1877
His wife pre-deceased him in 1892
Died in 1900, living in Wishaw

By this point I can't think of anything else to pursue. I find it strange I can find neither birth nor death for him, nor anything at all about his parents. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I'd love to hear them!

Offline Rosinish

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Re: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« Reply #1 on: Monday 30 November 20 13:13 GMT (UK) »
From your info. it looks as though Henry probably died 1897 - 1901

What about this...

DICKSON HENRY 64 - 1900 - 639/ 592 Dalziel

It's not unusual for ages to be wrong on death certs.


Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Hwby

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Re: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« Reply #2 on: Monday 30 November 20 13:27 GMT (UK) »
From your info. it looks as though Henry probably died 1897 - 1901

What about this...

DICKSON HENRY 64 - 1900 - 639/ 592 Dalziel

It's not unusual for ages to be wrong on death certs.


Annie
Ahhh  :o Yes, that's him! Interestingly enough, his mother is listed as Agnes, not Elizabeth, so something for me to explore. I'd written it off as it's ~7 years out for the birth, but I suppose son Hugh (the informant) may not have know exactly how old his dad was. Thanks for the hand!

Offline Rosinish

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Re: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« Reply #3 on: Monday 30 November 20 13:32 GMT (UK) »
How are Henry' parents written on his marriage...

1. Betsy Dickson, maiden name Clark

or

2. Betsy Clark (no Dickson)

If no. 2 then Henry was illegitimate.

His mother being given as Agnes may have been a guess as his children wouldn't have known their g/mother as she was deceased prior to their births?


Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"


Offline Forfarian

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Re: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« Reply #4 on: Monday 30 November 20 13:57 GMT (UK) »
I don't understand what "wrought to" means here.
I think it just means that he worked for him/them.

Quote
The 1871 and 1891 census give him an estimated birth year of 1845, whereas 1881 gives it 1843.
No, they don't. The original census never gives a year of birth, estimated or otherwise. This means that whatever census transcription you are using has 'calculated' his year of birth by subtracting the age he said he was from the year of the census. As the census is usually held about a quarter of the way through the year, this 'calculation' gives a wrong year three-quarters of the time.

Quote
His children have sons called "Hendry" popping up, so I wonder if he actually went by Hendry rather than Henry, but I have no documents to back that up beyond grandsons' names.
I wouldn't read anything into variants of spelling. When looking for a Henry on Scotland's People I would use H*n*r* to make sure of picking up all variations - for example Hendrie or Henrie or Hinrie as well as Henry or Hendry. If that doesn't work I'd also try Har* to see if he is recorded as Harry, Harrie etc.

Quote
Born between 1840 and 1845, in Old Motherwell.
Don't confuse Old Monkland with Motherwell. They are not the same. Motherwell is mostly in the parish of Dalziel, though it does spill over into neighbouring parishes. As far as I am aware no part of Motherwell is in the parish of Old Monkland.

Quote
his mother is listed as Agnes, not Elizabeth, so something for me to explore.
This is also quite common when a death is registered by a child or a more distant relative who never knew the person concerned. If there is a disparity between the name of the mother on a marriage certificate and the name on a death certificate, the former is almost certainly the correct name as someone getting married is more likely to know his mother's name than whoever registers his death.

Assuming that you have checked all the church registers on Scotland's People and found no record of his baptism as H*n*r* Di*on (to allow for Dixon though that spelling is rarer than Dickson in Scotland), check to see if he might have been illegitimate and baptised as H*n*r* Cl*rk*.

If that produces nothing, see
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825881.0
https://www.oldscottish.com/fathers-found.html
https://www.scottishindexes.com/helppaternity.aspx

Ultimately you may have to accept that Henry Dickson is one of the many people whose baptism record, if it ever existed, has not survived.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Hwby

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Re: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« Reply #5 on: Monday 30 November 20 15:01 GMT (UK) »
@Rosinish His mother is Elizabeth Dickson (ms Clark) on his marriage certificate, so seems he (at least claimed to be) legitimate. I suppose Hugh made an incorrect guess - why wouldn't someone just record it as unknown, hah!

@Forfarian Once again, thanks for the comprehensive answer... Not pulling up anything with the wildcards, so may have to accept I'm not going to find a birth record for Henry. Regarding Old Monkland/Motherwell confusion, I'm still terrible with towns and parishes and how everything relates - especially as people seem to change where exactly they were born depending on how they feel on a particular day filling out a particular document.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« Reply #6 on: Monday 30 November 20 18:11 GMT (UK) »
@Rosinish His mother is Elizabeth Dickson (ms Clark) on his marriage certificate, so seems he (at least claimed to be) legitimate. I suppose Hugh made an incorrect guess - why wouldn't someone just record it as unknown, hah!
It wasn't unknow for people to be economical with the truth when they wanted to conceal illegitimacy. I would certainly not dismiss the idea just because he claimed his parents were married.

Quote
@Forfarian Once again, thanks for the comprehensive answer... Not pulling up anything with the wildcards, so may have to accept I'm not going to find a birth record for Henry. Regarding Old Monkland/Motherwell confusion, I'm still terrible with towns and parishes and how everything relates - especially as people seem to change where exactly they were born depending on how they feel on a particular day filling out a particular document.
Yes, that's always a pain. There is some guidance on this sort of thing in a couple of places
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct
https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/home
and you can look at old maps at https://maps.nls.uk/ for example
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400128 which shows the parish boundaries in colour

Lanarkshire offers a particular challenge because there are several parishes where the largest town, shown on modern maps, does not have the same name as the historic parish. These include for example Cambusnethan, where the largest town is Wishaw; Dalziel/Motherwell; Old Monkland/Coatbridge; New Monkland/Airdrie etc.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Hwby

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Re: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« Reply #7 on: Monday 30 November 20 18:26 GMT (UK) »
Lanarkshire offers a particular challenge because there are several parishes where the largest town, shown on modern maps, does not have the same name as the historic parish. These include for example Cambusnethan, where the largest town is Wishaw; Dalziel/Motherwell; Old Monkland/Coatbridge; New Monkland/Airdrie etc.

That's exactly where my confusion comes from! All these places pop up at various times in my tree, which leads me to going through old OS maps and comparing to today to work out where they are. Cheers for the tips

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Can find neither birth nor death record for Henry Dickson (b. 1840-1845)
« Reply #8 on: Monday 30 November 20 20:00 GMT (UK) »
One other thing to do is see if you can find a copy of the old one-inch Ordnance Survey map from the 1950s or 1960s, sheet 61 'Falkirk and Lanark', which shows the parish boundaries (not Sheet 61 of the even older editions because the numbering was different). Or the first edition of the 1:50,000 landranger maps. Sheet 64 covers most of Lanarkshire. But don't get a Second Series Landranger sheet because the pesky so-and-sos took the parish boundaries off the Second and all subsequent editions. The first editions have a plain puce cover with no photograph so make sure not to but one with a photograph.

The sort of place you might find these old maps is in second-hand bookshops or online at www.abebooks.co.uk. See https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=22471535825&searchurl=bi%3D0%26ds%3D30%26bx%3Doff%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Done-inch%26kn%3D61%26an%3Dordnance%2Bsurvey%26recentlyadded%3Dall&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

I use a highlighter to mark the parish boundaries then I can see at a glance which parish a particular place is in.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.