GRAY - Roy, born 1896, Great Yarmouth

[softly softly]

Maureen, nor me, those that do follow are for a Ross Gray. Personally I think it's our man, what with dob exactly the same, he disappears after 1929 and no uk deaths for him in that name. Do not think I can offer anymore help on this post.

John

[seeking_roy_gray]

I'll take another look here - until this moment I was very confident I'd seen military records for Royan-Grey, but you're right that I'd misremembered that they were after Romany's.

We've looked through Royan-Grey a couple of times thinking he was our man so I'll definitely take another look here and come back to everyone in a bit. I do massively, massively appreciate all the experience and expertise that's been thrown at him here. My apologies for the misstatement on the military records earlier!

[softly softly]

In reply 4# you say you can find birth records for Roy Royan-Grey. Can you expand on this please.

John

[seeking_roy_gray]

In reply 4# you say you can find birth records for Roy Royan-Grey. Can you expand on this please.

John

I'm absolutely going to have to take another look because I'm not finding them to hand. But we had felt really solid about disqualifying Royan-Grey from the search. I should have recorded why/how but didn't. Give me a couple of days to retrace my steps and come back to everyone. Though I'd be glad to solve this so quickly if they are one in the same, I do feel a bit foolish if I didn't disqualify him as thoroughly as I thought we had 🤦‍♀️

Really, really appreciating the help and additional eyes on this. Thanks all :-)

Nicole

[rosie99]

I'm absolutely going to have to take another look because I'm not finding them to hand. But we had felt really solid about disqualifying Royan-Grey from the search. I should have recorded why/how but didn't. Give me a couple of days to retrace my steps and come back to everyone. Though I'd be glad to solve this so quickly if they are one in the same, I do feel a bit foolish if I didn't disqualify him as thoroughly as I thought we had 🤦‍♀️

Most of us are guilty of not recording how we reached conclusions on our trees. You certainly should not feel foolish about anything.  At least we are looking at it all again with fresh eyes.

Rosie

[seeking_roy_gray]

Well folks, I'm back with hat in hand to thank you all for getting me to take another look at Roy Royan-Grey. While I'm still not 100% sure Roy is Roy, I'm about 90% sure I've got a paper trail that could prove it out for us. I figured if anyone would like to know it would be you excellent people.

I ended up requesting Lucy's will, her death certificate, and Roy Royan-Grey's death certificate. I still can't find a probate record for Roy. But, our smoking gun lies in Roy's death certificate that - in addition to the exact matching birth date - shows his birth location as Great Yarmouth. Not sure what the odds of a similar name, exact same birth date, and same birth city being two different folks (especially when one set of docs start his life and others end it) but I'm hard pressed to think you weren't all right on the money. Geniuses, the lot of you.

I've tracked down some of Lucy's family to see if they have any history of Roy in their family legends. It would make sense that with Roy unwilling or unable to divorce Cissie that Lucy would have had to change her name vs get married I suppose. The next layer is that Roy's death was reported by a Mary Ramshaw, whose initials match later newspaper ads for the dog sales, so I'm not sure how she fits in here either.

Thank you all - without the push I would have kept writing Roy off, and I think I'm as close as we might get to rounding out this story. But if I find out more, then I'll be sure to pop back in and update you all. Thank you, thank you.

Edited to attach the certified copy of Roy Royan-Grey's death certificate, property of the Crown Copyright, with colored edits added to ensure the copy attached couldn't be used to print or infringe the copyright. Hoping that covers me but I'm sure someone will share if not!!!

[softly softly]

Many thanks for letting us all know the follow ups you have made. It's always good to get an update on progress being made. Whilst you are 90% sure I think the rest of us would be nearer 98%. Have a good day.

John

[Mabel Bagshawe]

A Mary Jane Ramshaw of 64 Langholme Rd, East Boldon died 10 Nov 1970.  Date of birth from death registration was 25 Jun 1880. Her estate administration wasn't added to the register until 1974 though

I am guessing the Mary who reported Roy's death in 1971 was related to her - and having now found Mary J on the 1939 register they appear to be mother and daughter. The younger Mary was b 1913 and died 1998 (no probate/will though from what I can see)

Was there any clue from Lucy's will as to the nature of her relationship with Roy by the time she died?

[seeking_roy_gray]

That's very fair, John! Roy's given us such a run around I keep treating him with suspicion on every record. But this is hugely convincing for me in lots of ways.

Mabel, I am wondering if by this point Roy and Lucy had separated and that Roy and Mary were now together.

Lucy's will is either very telling or not helpful, depending on your view. She last made the will in 1959, and left everything to a lady named Grace Elizabeth Gee. Her death was reported by Shelagh Brennan, also in '71.

Some of the dog ads in the mid-40s were already listing Mary as a contact, so barring her simply being a partner in the business, my hunch is telling me that Roy and Lucy had separated by then and that Lucy finally updated her will to exclude him in '59...assuming he'd been in there at all at some point before.