Walter Graham or Armstrong b1816 so John Graham or Armstrong & Margaret Telfer

[Jeffrey]

Just looking at Margaret Telfer
She seems to be listed having many illegitimate births. I don't know if these are all her but the end one says Quadrelapse which means she is a 'regular fornicator'.
1796 David Smith Tenant Cote Eskdailemuir
1807 William Elliot Jnr Broomieknow
1812 William Graham Claygate
1815 John Armstrong alias Grahm
1817 Joh Grieve now deceased & Margaret Telfer Quadrelapse
1820 David Alan of Barnliesh.

So don't know what to make of those.

Judy
PS All Canonbie

[MonicaL]

What a dreadful word Quadrelapse is  Never heard it before.

If this is all one Margaret, she would have been much older that John Graham/Armstrong. Hard to say really without more info.

Monica

[Forfarian]

She seems to be listed having many illegitimate births. I don't know if these are all her but the end one says Quadrelapse which means she is a 'regular fornicator'.

It specifically means that she was being hauled up before the Kirk Session for a fourth time.

Relapse - second time
Trilapse - third time
Quadrilapse - fourth time

I haven't seen any beyond quadrilapse. But I think it would be reasonable to interpret it as meaning that she was a regular fornicatrix.

[MonicaL]

Thank you, Forfarian  Haven't really read many Kirk Session minutes as you can tell!

Monica

[Jeffrey]

Yes I thought that must be that she’d had 4 illegitimate children. So the first must have been 1807 if they are all indexed.

Just a point of interest it doesn’t say anything like that for any of the men who had many illegitimate children. Sign of the times 

I have seen a few Kirk Sessions other than Canonbie and some of ‘the elders’  were relentless in the interrogation of the girls as to who the father was and where and when ‘the sin’ happened. One in Fife made me feel very uncomfortable as to what exactly the motive was. 

I have posted a reply on the other post from 2009 which is about a Walter Armstrong c1816 that you mentioned Monica.

Your replies much appreciated
Judy 

[Forfarian]

I think there were two main motives.

One was the extirpation of 'sin' in the form of fornication.

The other was to try to prevent illegitimate children becomeing a financial burden on the parish poors fund. The interrogation was in order to get the father to admit paternity and pay for the child's upkeep until (s)he was old enough to earn his/her own living.

But I agree that some of the questioning seems to suggest a rather prurient and often unnecessary appetite for all the details.

[Forfarian]

Just looking at Margaret Telfer
She seems to be listed having many illegitimate births. I don't know if these are all her but the end one says Quadrelapse which means she is a 'regular fornicator'.
1796 David Smith Tenant Cote Eskdailemuir
1807 William Elliot Jnr Broomieknow
1812 William Graham Claygate
1815 John Armstrong alias Grahm
1817 Joh Grieve now deceased & Margaret Telfer Quadrelapse
1820 David Alan of Barnliesh.

It certainly looks like a very long 'career'.

I wonder about the 11-year gap between David Smith and William Elliot, and that makes me speculate that perhaps there are two different Margaret Telfers in that list? Suppose that she was 16 when David Smith's child was born, then she would have been born around 1780, and aged about 40 by 1820, which seems slightly suspect, even if not impossible?

In the MIs for Canonbie church graveyard there is an entry that relates to Margaret Telford spouse of James Clapperton who died at Ladyhousestead 7th April 1867 aged 72 years.

So if her age is accurate she would have been born 1794/1795 and could not possibly have been the mother of David Smith's child in 1796, and aged just 11 or 12 when William Elliot's child was conceived. Also, she was married before your Margaret's quadrelapse. So I think she can safely be eliminated from your enquiries.

So how many Margaret Telfers were there?

By looking at the 1851 Census I see there is a Margaret Telford aged 74 at the top of the sheet. I haven't got the preceding sheet to see who else is on there.

The household is
William Anderson/head/mar/42/Langholm
Margaret Anderson/wife/mar/36/Canonbie
John Anderson/son/14/Canonbie
Margaret Anderson/daughter/10/Canonbie
Margaret Tilford/mother-in-law/wid/74/pauper/Canonbie.

John George Anderson, baptised 3 July 1836, son of William Anderson and Telfer (no given name)
Margaret Anderson, baptised 26 September 1841, parents William A and Margaret Telfer.

So on the face of it this Margaret T*lford is probably Margaret Beattie, who married John Telfer in 1803 and had four recorded children in Canonbie, including a Margaret in 1815. In which case she isn't your Margaret Telfer. If you do want to investigate her further, just in case, you should ask Dumfries and Galloway Archives https://www.dumgal.gov.uk/article/15308/Local-archives if they have the Canonbie Parochial Board records and if so whether or not they mention Margaret T*lford.

[Jeffrey]

That is a good summing up.   I agree with it. Thank you.
What Are Parochial Board Records Please?

Think I may also have to try and see if I can find the other children born illegitimately to John Armstrong alias Graham Byreburnfoot Canonbie Dec 1817 and Mary Wilson had Twins. Any ideas?

When children were born illegitimately could they not be baptised in the church does any one know? As I can't find any baptisms for these.

Judy

[Forfarian]

What Are Parochial Board Records Please?

Until 1845 the kirk basically looked after parishioners who were too old or ill or orphaned or otherwise unable to support themselves - the money paid for calling of banns and for the mortcloth went into a fund for the poor.

In 1845 a new system was brought in whereby the relief of poverty became the responsibility of a committee in each parish. These committees were called parochial boards.

They interrogated every applicant and collected extensive details before deciding whether or not the applicant was deserving of support. Information always included their parish of birth, because if they were born in Parish A but were living in Parish B when they fell on hard times, parish B could in some circumstances pass the buck, and of course the costs, back to parish A. Usually it also included their parentage, marriage(s), number, ages and situation of children, religious affiliation, illness, fitness to work etc, and if the Parochial Board deemed them deserving of support, they were admitted to the Register of Poor. The register then tracks them until they can again support themselves, or they die.

The word 'pauper' in the census always indicates that they are in receipt of relief from the parochial board, and if that board's records have survived, they can be an absolute treasure trove of information.

Here's an example in the 1890s in Glasgow from my own tree - surnames deleted
George H, per concubine, 19 Taylor Street, low, right and facing. Born Larbert, widower, age 54, protestant. Iron grinder, wholly disabled by phthisis and fistula (Dr Dewar).
Wife Margaret E died in Dalmarnock Road ten years ago.[***] Has cohabited with Elizabeth E, his cousin, for 9½ years. No family [**]
Son of Peter H, iron grinder, and Margaret R, both dead.
Brother James, 73, retired, resides at Burnhead Brae, Stenhousemuir
Brother John, married and retired, resides as above
Brother Peter, an iron grinder in Carron Iron Works, resides in Stenhousemuir
First application. Settlement Larbert.
Married in house of Revd Mr Ferguson, Bath Street, 29 years ago.
Used to take drink.
Present house, Glasgow, 1 year
Prior Miller's Court, Dobbie's Loan, Barony 3 months
Prior Thistle Street, Govan 8 months
Prior 47 Rose Street, Govan 5 months
Prior Surrey Lane, Govan 2 months
Prior Salisbury Street, Govan 1 year
Prior Falkirk, Larbert and various other places about Bridgeton, Anderston and centre of city which he cannot detail.
Granted medical order. [Glasgow Parochial Board Records, No 54056]

[***] This is not true. His wife actually outlived him and died in 1911!!
[**] Although he had no family by Elizabeth, he had five children by his wife, four of whom died ac young children. One daughter married, but she too predeceased him. So at the time of this application there were no *surviving* children.

Note: 'Disabled' in this context means incapable of earning a living.
'Settlement' indicates which parish is ultimately expected to be responsible for bearing the cost of supporting a pauper. One acquired 'settlement' by being born in a particular parish, but there were ways of acquiring 'settlement' in another parish. For example a married woman acquired 'settlement' in her husband's parish of 'settlement', and anyone could acquire 'settlement' by living in a particular parish for five (later reduced to three) consecutive years. Hence the attempt to find out where George had lived to determine whether he had actually lived long enough anywhere to acquire a 'settlement' other than his birth parish of Larbert.