Author Topic: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT  (Read 466 times)

Offline suey

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Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
« on: Monday 11 January 21 10:51 GMT (UK) »
I have twin girls, Hannah and Sarah ARGENT, baptised on the same day, 6th December 1778, both aged 22 days. St Mary Stratford

What are the chances of both surviving ?  Do any Rootschatters have surviving twins from this period?

I have Hannah in later records but no sign of Sarah.  I'm fairly certain she has died although can't find any record of death or burial.

 
All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Sussex - Knapp. Nailard. Potten. Coleman. Pomfrey. Carter. Picknell
Greenwich/Woolwich. - Clowting. Davis. Kitts. Ferguson. Lowther. Carvalho. Pressman. Redknap. Argent.
Hertfordshire - Sturgeon. Bird. Rule. Claxton. Taylor. Braggins

Offline trish1120

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Re: Twins born 1778
« Reply #1 on: Monday 11 January 21 12:57 GMT (UK) »
Was the Bapt London, Essex or Suffolk?
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Offline trish1120

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Re: Twins born 1778
« Reply #2 on: Monday 11 January 21 13:12 GMT (UK) »
If Parents were Samuel/Sarah.
 Doesnt Samuels 1807 Will mention Daugs Sara/Elizabeth/Hanna and Sons Thomas/Christopher?
(must admit my eyes are not great so may need checking by someone!)
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)


Offline suey

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Re: Twins born 1778
« Reply #3 on: Monday 11 January 21 13:51 GMT (UK) »
If Parents were Samuel/Sarah.
 Doesnt Samuels 1807 Will mention Daugs Sara/Elizabeth/Hanna and Sons Thomas/Christopher?
(must admit my eyes are not great so may need checking by someone!)

Yes, I donít have it to hand right now.. I have had doubts for years that my family are the ones in that will. But Iím dipped if I can find births/baptisms elsewhere for my lot. 
Mine are all in Poplar, Bow area of London, when I can find them that is. In the one reliable census 1851 they claim Poplar or Bow as pob.

Just a coincidence of names muddying the water

Back to the drawing board it seems.
All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Sussex - Knapp. Nailard. Potten. Coleman. Pomfrey. Carter. Picknell
Greenwich/Woolwich. - Clowting. Davis. Kitts. Ferguson. Lowther. Carvalho. Pressman. Redknap. Argent.
Hertfordshire - Sturgeon. Bird. Rule. Claxton. Taylor. Braggins

Offline jonw65

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Re: Twins born 1778
« Reply #4 on: Monday 11 January 21 17:01 GMT (UK) »
If Parents were Samuel/Sarah.
 Doesnt Samuels 1807 Will mention Daugs Sara/Elizabeth/Hanna and Sons Thomas/Christopher?
(must admit my eyes are not great so may need checking by someone!)

I agree Trish, I also think one of his executors is John Argent, who is another son
 "sons John Christopher and Thomas"

The burial register for St Mary Bow has
26 June 1806, Sarah Argent, died of Decline, age 58
Where buried - Barking.

Is that then a death date?
As there is a burial at Barking, Essex, on 6 July 1806
Sarah Argent, age 58
Parish register here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q93-QWB

Then, in 1807, the Bow register has
22 July, Samuel Argent, decline, age 62, buried Barking

And in the Barking parish register, burials in 1807
29 July, Samuel Argent, 62
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-FPN

The will of Samuel Argent was dated 22 June 1807
And proved in the PCC, 27 July 1807

Was the marriage at Barking? :-\
12 Nov 1769
Samuel Argent and Sarah Braybrook
Bachelor and spinster, both of the parish
Image of parish register on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-BPY

Offline suey

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Re: Twins born 1778
« Reply #5 on: Monday 11 January 21 20:02 GMT (UK) »

I have been looking at Samuel and Sarah Argent for some years and have finally concluded that they are not mine.  However I might want them to 'fit' my family they don't.

But you will see why I tried.

I have Elizabeth Argent -
1841 age 60 by c1781
1851 age 65 by c1786
1861 age 87 by 1774
1864 burial record dies age 89 buried Tower Hamlets

Hannah Argent
1841 age 60 by c1771
1851 age 66 by c1785
1854 dies, from burial All Saints Poplar age 73 by c1781

Thomas Argent
1809 - Thames Watermen etc. Bound to William Milton but reassigned to Reuben Pressman on the same date. Supposing Thomas was 15 by c1794
(Reuben Pressman was Hannah's first husband)
1841 age 46 by c1795
1851 age 50 by c1801

Sarah Argent
1851 age 40 by c1811
This is the only firm sighting I have of Sarah, I'm still exploring the possibility that Sarah made a late marriage

Census, below are the census returns which make me believe that the above are siblings,

CENSUS 1851 - 6 Leicester Street Poplar
Hannah Melvin head 66 parish relief b Bow (Was Pressman)
Mary Ann Lowther dau 34 mariners wife b Poplar
Sarah Argent un aunt 40 servant out of place b Bow
Thomas Argent un uncle 50 lighterman b Bow
Sarah Redknap sister m 38 dressmaker b Poplar nee Pressman
Georgina Redknap dau 14 b Hammersmith
Joseph Redknap son 8 ditto
Mary Ann Redknap dau 3 b Poplar - poss death 1854
Mary Ann Lowther dau 5 b Poplar
George Lowther son 1yr ditto
Alfred Lowther son 3 months ditto

1851 Census at 172 High Street Shadwell Tower Hamlets in the household of James Herne 61 auctioneer master b Mdsx St George
Elizabeth Argent serv un age 65 born Midsx Bromley
Sarah Redknap serv un age 17 born Hammersmith - Sarah Pressman and Joseph Redknaps daughter.
Two lodgers Geo Hitchen 26 plasterer from Brighton and Joshua Turner 24 a gunsmith from Holborn

1861 Census Elizabeth Argent, described as aunt is with James and Sarah Everett - aged 87 (Elizabeth would be Sarah's great aunt)
17 Sidney Street, MEOT
James Everett head m 24 messenger b Brentwood
Sarah wife 26  (Sarah nee Redknap)
James 15
Mary 3

They all claim Bow, Bromley, Poplar as place of birth. You can see my confusion. Conclusion is they moved into Poplar as children from elsewhere and all assume the area as their birthplace.
All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Sussex - Knapp. Nailard. Potten. Coleman. Pomfrey. Carter. Picknell
Greenwich/Woolwich. - Clowting. Davis. Kitts. Ferguson. Lowther. Carvalho. Pressman. Redknap. Argent.
Hertfordshire - Sturgeon. Bird. Rule. Claxton. Taylor. Braggins

Offline jonw65

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Re: Twins born 1778
« Reply #6 on: Monday 11 January 21 22:55 GMT (UK) »
Hi
Hannah is a bit complicated!
So her first marriage as Argent in Bow to Reuben Pressman was witnessed by an Elizabeth Argent
Then she married Enos Redknap in 1820 in Shoreditch
Third marriage to Thomas Melvin in Greenwich in 1834. Witnessed by Elizabeth Argent again?

In 1851 then it seems that, although Hannah Melvin is the head of household, the three other adult relationships given are to her daughter Mary Ann Lowther (or Lower here?).
Perhaps Mary completed the form?

I think it says that Sarah is 60 in 1851, though ancestry say 40
Though it is still not the same age as Hannah, 66.
When we are hoping they might be the twins. Though, as you have suggested, Sarah might have died, and later was replaced by another Sarah. Though there are funny discrepancies in the info people sometimes give in the census.

Did Thomas die in 1856?
ARGENT, THOMAS       
Age at Death (in years):  62 
GRO Reference: 1856  J Quarter in POPLAR UNION  Volume 01C  Page 396

Burial at Poplar All Saints, 26 June 1856
Thomas Argent
age 62

Which would be a good match on age for the son of Samuel + Sarah
Thomas Argent bap 15 Sep 1793, Bow, born 31 Aug 1793

Hannah's age on the census, and on death, all make her older than the twin born 1788.
John

Offline suey

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Re: Twins born 1778
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 08:43 GMT (UK) »

John, many thanks...You see my dilemma.

Yes I believe Mary Ann gave the information. 
Yes, I believe that is Thomas death in 1856
Yes, greedy Hannah had three husbands, I think she was a good catch, Reuben left her a 100 ton barge plus the contents of a public house  :D

1851, I have looked at that image over and over, is it a scrappy 60, 66 or 40, you could make it 'fit'

Twins born 1778 - Hannah, in 1841 age 60 by c1771
                                             1851 age 66 by c1785
                                              1854 Hannah dies age 73 by c1781

Samuel dies 1807, his will mentions a Christopher, nothing known about him, also John, prs have a James born to Samuel and Sarah 1780 but no John (James and John?, one and the same?)
Samuel was a carpenter, possibly involved with boat building, repairs. Hannah marries a seaman, Thomas becomes a waterman.

You can see how easy it is to fiddle the facts and figures to make it work  ;D ;D
All census lookups are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Sussex - Knapp. Nailard. Potten. Coleman. Pomfrey. Carter. Picknell
Greenwich/Woolwich. - Clowting. Davis. Kitts. Ferguson. Lowther. Carvalho. Pressman. Redknap. Argent.
Hertfordshire - Sturgeon. Bird. Rule. Claxton. Taylor. Braggins

Online LizzieL

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Re: Twins born 1778
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 09:15 GMT (UK) »

I agree Trish, I also think one of his executors is John Argent, who is another son
 "sons John Christopher and Thomas"
.......

Was the marriage at Barking? :-\
12 Nov 1769
Samuel Argent and Sarah Braybrook
Bachelor and spinster, both of the parish
Image of parish register on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-BPY

There's a John Argent bapt Barking on 10 nov 1771 s/o Samuel and Sarah
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