Author Topic: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal  (Read 6170 times)

Offline mrcakey

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Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« on: Tuesday 12 January 21 11:40 GMT (UK) »
I don't know if this was a practice through all Wales or just in Flintshire, but the baptism records for several of my ancestors contain - very helpfully - the names of the parents of the mother. (See example.)

I was wondering what the logic was for doing this but not including the names of the father's parents?
Houghton - Lancashire, inc. Manchester
Robertson - Angus
Collinge - Yorkshire, Lancashire, USA
Nedderman - Lancashire
Lane/Fryer - Kent

Offline groom

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Re: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 11:54 GMT (UK) »
Possibly because they could be sure that the mother was the mother and so her details were correct? I suppose it also made it easier if the baby was illegitimate just to state the maternal line. It would be great if they were all like this.
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Offline Romilly

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Re: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 12:05 GMT (UK) »

Yes, I’ve got several like this, with just the Mother’s Parents on it.

I too had wondered why...

Romilly.
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Wilson, Warren, Dulston, Hooper, Duffin, Petty, Rees, Davies, Williams, Newman, Dyer, Hamilton, Edmeads, Pattenden.

Online arthurk

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Re: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 14:26 GMT (UK) »
You find something similar in the Dade-style parish register of Yorkshire and a few other places. These typically give a brief pedigree, but I have a baptism entry in front of me which goes back to the grandparents, and then the grandmothers' fathers are also named.

I've never asked about this or seen an official explanation, but it seems to me that it may have been that women were defined solely in terms of their relationship to their husband or father - in other words, not much more than possessions. Hmmmm... :o :-X
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

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Offline medpat

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Re: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 14:51 GMT (UK) »
Without the maternal grandparents you wouldn't have the mother's maiden name.
GEDmatch M157477

Online arthurk

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Re: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 16:03 GMT (UK) »
True, but men tend to be defined by their occupation and residence; with women they weren't simply defined by their maiden name and residence, but as daughter of [man, occupation, residence].

On further reflection, while it may seem strange and discriminatory to us, perhaps it was just a reflection of the times. Part of the purpose of these records was to establish someone's identity, which might in future be needed to prove things like residence or inheritance. Since these depended far more on men's status than women's (eg married women generally could not own property in their own name), any line of descent that was referred to would need to go back to a man.

And it's only now (very recent? imminent?) that English and Welsh marriage registers are to show a couple's mothers' names as well as their fathers', so maybe things haven't changed so much after all.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JenB

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Re: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 16:20 GMT (UK) »
It was exactly the same in the Shute Barrington era registers in the Diocese of Durham.
Here’s an example https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X4W9-MC?i=190&cc=1309819&cat=1809362
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Offline Gadget

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Re: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 17:32 GMT (UK) »
There was a variation of this in the Llangollen registers in the late part of the 18th century and into the next.  The records  were in the form of   '.....and X his wife (formally X surname). 

Add - and I recall Kinnerley (Shropshire) having a similar form in the same time period. Both sets were a great help when I was searching for my ancestors  :)

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Offline Gadget

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Re: Welsh baptisms - maternal grandparents but not paternal
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 12 January 21 17:47 GMT (UK) »
Also, I've just recalled that some of the North Wales  non-conformist registers (of similar dates) not only had details of the mother's maiden name but also of her previous residence.
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