Author Topic: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help  (Read 2600 times)

Offline JustinL

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 27 April 21 18:33 BST (UK) »
The groom was Mr. Shimon Tsvi son of Mr. ... (blank, no name!!)

"tsvi" means deer in Hebrew. The Yiddish calque is Hirsh; anglicised to Harry

Will attend Wedding: Mosheh Leyb will be at the wedding (one brother with a double given name)

The bride was the maiden Pesa daughter of the late Ze'ev.

There is a photo of Pauline's father's gravestone on JewishGen. His full Hebrew name was Ze'ev son of Aryeh. "ze'ev" means wolf in Hebrew.

How disappointing and surprising that the MA provided so little information. I can't believe that Simon's father's name wasn't even noted. Somebody had to prove that he was the son of an irrefutably Jewish couple.

Do you have the civil marriage certificate?

Justin


Offline Neil_A

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 27 April 21 19:26 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the translation Justin - though as you say a missed opportunity by my ancestors to provide an audit trail!

In theory Simon's parents were at the wedding in Cardiff (a local newspaper references the groom's parents being present). It also meant that the parents weren't present for the 1897 census as the wedding weekend clashed with the big data collection in Russia.

Would you say 'Tsvi'/'deer' would be a term of endearment or (want of a better word) nickname?
I ask as a name - first name or surname this is a first in my research so far.

The one brother attending is also interesting. Looking at my other information source I have Simon as having a brother known in the Vitals as Moisey (could that be the Mosheh here i.e. are they both interpretations of the anglicised name Moses?). Though I have Moisey listed as Moisey-Nesanel Nesanelis, not Leyb. I do believe Simon had an uncle called Itsko-Leyb - but maybe I cant read too much into that!

Oh I wish Simon had insisted on proper documentation - the civil certificate references him as a commercial agent so would have thought the right sign offs would have been essential! :-\

Neil




Offline JustinL

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 28 April 21 10:30 BST (UK) »
Hi Neil,

Jewish given names is a complicated subject. I would recommend that you read the articles here https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/menu.htm, particularly section 5, to gain better insight.

Tsvi was not a nickname. Simon's sacred name (shem kodesh) was the double name Shimon-Tsvi, both of which are Hebrew as opposed to Yiddish. In Russian records, the name would appear as something like Shimen-Girsh/Gersh; there is no letter "h" in Russian.

Variant forms of Jewish given names is a complete nightmare. I recommend this article http://www.bfcollection.net/fast/articles/understand_names.pdf. The Hebrew name Mosheh had numerous Yiddish variants; Moisey can definitely be regarded as one.

Itsko-Leyb is a good example of complex name. Istko is a diminutive of the Yiddish name Itsik, which comes from the Hebrew name Yitschak (biblical Isaac). Leyb is the Yiddish word for "lion" and was a very common alias for men with the Hebrew name Yehuda, whom the patriarch Jacob described as a young lion (Genesis 49:9).

What was the name of Simon's father on the marriage cert and who were the witnesses?

Offline Neil_A

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 28 April 21 21:26 BST (UK) »
Great links - thank you Justin. Helps with the family history and also a further insight into the Jewish faith. I'll continue to study these and revert back if I may? (hoping that the databases come back online in the meantime)

On the civil marriage certificate of Pauline and Simon.....the groom's father is listed as Phillip Brooks, contractor. Witnesses are Abraham Cohen and a J Samuel. My assumption on both that they were business associates of either the groom or bride's family. I believe that Phillips real name was Fayvel, so possibly anglicised for his trip to Wales.



Offline Neil_A

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 29 April 21 06:30 BST (UK) »
PS

Is there a chance that Moshe Leib are two rather than one brother i.e. is there any indication that this is or is either singular or plural?

Asking as I believe Simon had a brother known as 'Leon' who was UK based (could Leon be an anglicised version of Leib?) and Moisey (who was Russia based), and given Simon's Russian parents were present in Wales, may have accompanied his parents for the marriage?


Neil

Offline JustinL

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 29 April 21 09:37 BST (UK) »
Neil,

The only database that has ever been available over the years is the main GNDB (https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/givennames/search.htm).

Philip would have been the commonest anglicisation of Fayvel.

What makes you think that Simon's parents were just visiting for his wedding? Because you can't find Philip/Fayvel in post-1897 records?

Mosheh-Leyb was one man. The verb yihye יהיה (will be) is the 3rd person masculine singular; the 3rd person plural is yihyu יהיו. It was not uncommon for only one part of a double name, often the second part, to be used as the "everyday" name.

So this brother could have been known as Leon (from the Latin "leo" = lion), which is most definitely a secular alias for Leyb/Leib.

I know that the old synagogue where Simon and Pauline married is no longer in use, but there is presumably a successor synagogue in the town. I suggest that you contact the new synagogue to make enquiries about the 1897 marriage. Many years ago, I contacted the London synagogue where my ggf's brother had married in 1880. To my absolute amazement, not to mention excitement, they sent me a copy of the original ketuba (Jewish marriage contract).

Justin

Offline Neil_A

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 29 April 21 21:07 BST (UK) »
Thanks Justin - I've messaged the current Synagogue to see if they are the local archives still have the local Ketuba records.

The 1897 wedding appeared to be quite an event from what i can tell - the last one in the old synagogue. The event made the local press and the newspaper references the groom's father and mother being in attendance. No names nor any reference to any brothers!!  :'(
Not comprehensive proof but the parents appear not be present in their hometown at the time of the 1897 census. I have records that point to them being at the same address in 1875 and 1912 - so no reason they wouldn't have been picked up in 1897 (apart from avoiding the authorities which though possible not likely given the listing of the neighbours).

Simon's obit made reference to his brother Leon. But Leon was known as Leon Saul, rather than say a name that referenced Moses. The other twist is that I can see a man known as Moisey Nesanel who had the patronymic Fayvel. Maybe a coincidence or distant relative but the date of birth, relatively unusual surname for the Ukraine, and location of Moisey point him to being the son of the same Fayvel. Sorry probably a stupid question but would it be uncommon to share a name with brothers? So one brother being Leib-Saul and the other Moisey-Leib?
 



Offline JustinL

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 01 May 21 09:58 BST (UK) »
Hi Neil,

Leon Saul Brooks/Brooksky/Nesanelis ties things together nicely, but raises in my mind the question of whether Nesanelis was the original birth surname or one assumed by the brothers in the 1930s.

You have, presumably, found him and his wife, Marjorie, at separate addresses in the 1939 register with the later annotations in the red that their surname was later changed to Nesanelis?

Have you obtained Leon and Marjory's 1902 civil marriage certificate (644/7 112 Blythswood) via ScotlandsPeople? Scottish civil marriage certs provide the names of both parents of the bride and groom as well as the mothers' maiden names.

I couldn't tell you whether it was common for brothers to share names. My own Jewish ancestors came from Germany, where it was very unusual for boys and girls to be given double-names. Put the question to the JG forum.

I would be reasonably confident that we're looking at two different brothers.

Where have you managed to find the Berdychiv records? Are they online?

Cheers, Justin



Offline Neil_A

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Re: Jewish/Ukranian/Russian Surnames help
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 01 May 21 15:05 BST (UK) »
Hi Justin

I do think it was Nesanelis > Brooks, rather than Brooks > Nesanelis.
Nesanelis being an unusual name even for the Ukraine. Its origins are more likely to be Lithuania according to Jewish name expert Alexander Baider (who someone kindly asked on my behalf on the JG Forum). Both Leon Saul and Simon Harry have a connection to the name Nesanelis and were brothers who found themselves in the UK in the late 19th century.

I've managed to track both brothers down from almost cradle to their final resting places - picking up on a newspaper trail, alien registers, and the more 'normal' route of my research i.e. census, electoral registers and BMD (including the Glasgow wedding). Leon's father is listed as Fayvel!

I've reached out on the JG forum as you suggested to see what others may think, and I'm hoping that the naturalisation records of Simon's wife (when I see them) may give some extra clues.

As for sources of information happy to share here - as I've found it incredibly useful on Rootschat to discover sources through other people's stories. So hoping this also proves useful....

For Ukrainian records there is a chap - Alex Krakovsky, from Kyiv I believe, who keeps taking the government to court re. access to historic records. He wins, copies and then publishes online what he finds. This is the translated index of his records:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title%3DSpecial:Search%26limit%3D500%26offset%3D0%26profile%3Ddefault%26search%3DAlexkrakovsky%26advancedSearch-current%3D%7B%7D%26ns0%3D1%26ns6%3D1%26ns12%3D1%26ns14%3D1%26ns100%3D1%26ns106%3D1

Access is free but if you are like me and don't understand Russian you need to train your eyes for some key letters of the Russian alphabet! stevemorse.org is an excellent resource.

Another incredibly useful source of information for the Ukraine has been the database maintained by Nadia Lipes:
https://lipesdatabase.com/about/
It's not cheap. But I've splashed out a few translated records, and the index which includes locations and the patronymics are also a useful pointer.

Some of the records I've been looking at go back to early 19th century Ukraine!

The Russian military records databases are more miss than hit - but I've also retrieved a few key documents:
https://gwar.mil.ru/heroes/?fbclid=IwAR13Hd4gt3McOLAJxu3ClvfCDDRhhXwTzsybxQTMlwsgOI5AzYmwDq97IKM

Finally for me an unexpected source of information - the Hoover Institute in San Francisco.
It holds copies of the Okhrana Files that were produced or held by the Tsar's secret police in Paris.
Lots of photographs, copies of letters. Sadly there was no photo of my ancestors but they provided a copy of an intercepted letter that was addressed to my great * 3 grandfather.

I'm also looking at DNA matching as a means of filling in the gaps on the family line, and trying to track down descendants in the UK, though that is proving more difficult than I imagined. Though both Simon and Leon were from big families their own children didn't all go on themselves to have offspring.

best wishes

Neil