Author Topic: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?  (Read 1783 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #9 on: Friday 05 February 21 23:31 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, I appreciate the answers, so far.  To clarify, I was not considering consanguinity directly in this case.

Heywood,

I'm afraid my info is very sketchy.  Essentially, it boils down to this:

A woman remarried later in life.  I'm guessing she must have then been roughly about fifty.

The church record of her first marriage does not survive, and it was before civil records.  There doesn't seem to be a civil record for her second marriage that I can find.  The church record of her second marriage record - only an index on IrishGenealogy - no primary source available for the parish at https://registers.nli.ie/ - gives her parents' names.  Here's a summary of it:

Marriage of DANIEL CLIFFORD of TINIHALLY and CATHERINE DONOGHUE of W TULLIG E on 29 November 1890
Parents of Catherine: John Brennan and Honora Sweeny
Parents of Daniel: John and Ellen Clifford
Witnesses: Patrick Reilly and Johanna Dodd

(Killorglin Parish, Co. Kerry)

I have no other strong direct indication of the names of her parents, other than this record.  But it doesn't seem to be reliable.  The father's last name is slightly off - Brennan compared to the true maiden name Breen.  (though I am 100% sure it is the same woman, based on strong evidence) And I could easily believe that the father's name was misinterpreted, as elsewhere, I have seen Breen written so it could be misinterpreted as Brennan.

But the mother's name really throws me for a loop.  There is no couple like that in the surviving records, either with Breen or Brennan.  And I can guess the rough timeline when the daughter (the bride who remarried) was born with reasonable certainty.  Not the exact year, but within about +- 3 three years. Enough to know that her birth should probably appear in the surviving record, even if it was in a nearby parish.  Or, even if the page was damaged, I think a sibling would probably still appear.

One possibility that I was considering is that the mother listed in the record was really her stepmother.  If so, then there is a strong possibility that her father remarried during a gap in the records.  There is about a 22 year gap, or larger.

Unfortunately, though the woman (again the bride who remarried, age about 50) had many children, only two baptism records survive, so not a lot of clues in the sponsors names, to connect her to her parents, other than this marriage record.  Though, I have some very weak evidence, which allowed me to suspect two different couples, both living in the same townland.  In one case, the father's name was John Breen, but in neither case was the mother's name close.

In one surviving baptism record, the name Sugrue appeared.  This was the maiden name of both of the two mothers that I was considering.  A witness to the marriage of one of her sons was also named Sugrue, though it is a common name.  The other surviving baptism record had a couple as sponsors who lived in the same townland as both these couples

So, may I please ask ... who was  the step mum a  third cousin to ....

JM  edited to rephrase my question.
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Offline shanreagh

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 06 February 21 08:47 GMT (UK) »
Honora Sweeny...could be Hanora, Nora, Norah, Honor and Sweeny has many many different possibilities including Swiney. 

Just to place Catherine Clifford...does she appear in 1901 census in Tinnahally Milltown C Kerry aged 60  with a gd daughter Mary Twohey aged 11?  She is a widow.

There is a John Brennan with a Honora Sheehan parents of a Catherine Brennan baptised 26/2/1842 on Irish Genealogy.

Online heywood

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 06 February 21 10:10 GMT (UK) »
I have been looking at Timothy Donoghue and Catherine Breen. Is that your couple?

Shanreaghs sighting possibly leads to Mary Tuohey - mother Mary Donoghue

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02394/1893012.pdf

And then the Tuohey and Donoghue marriage

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10832/5950911.pdf

On a couple of the records I was looking at prior to this, there is a Sponsor Ellen Breen/Brien.

If this is the right family, have you checked Ellen Breen, a possible sibling?

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Online heywood

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 06 February 21 10:31 GMT (UK) »
Marriage of Patrick Brennan and Honora Sheehan - not much information
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01q9z/

1842 -Catherine Brennan baptised - Raingue
1846 - John Brennan baptised - Rangue
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Online Maiden Stone

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 06 February 21 14:15 GMT (UK) »
Honora Sweeny...could be Hanora, Nora, Norah, Honor and Sweeny has many many different possibilities including Swiney. 


2 Irish ancestors, different sides of my family were known as Ann/ie and recorded as that in some documents.
Cowban

Offline Ghostwheel

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 06 February 21 15:03 GMT (UK) »
Yes, Timothy Donoghue was Catherine Breen's first husband.  He died in 1884.  It is my theory that all the sons used Timothy as their middle name, though I'm not 100% sure of it.

Yes, that is Catherine on the c1901 for Tinnahally.  I believe she lived there after, she got married in 1890.  But her previous address, when she was married to Timothy was Tullig or Tullig Beg/Tullabeg, where her daughter Mary continued to live.

From a 1904 marriage record of Catherine's son Daniel in Manchester, NH, USA, I know that Catherine was still living in 1904 somewhere in Ireland, but I am unable to trace her to a specific address, after 1901.

Of her children, I know that two continued in the local area.  Mary Donoghue b1864 and Patrick Donoghue, b. circa 1863

I know that three migrated to Manchester, NH, USA.  (That is the family story.) James b1868.  Ellen b1870.  Daniel b1879.

I am unable to trace any of the other children though, and would be interested if anyone can find them around 1901 or 1900. 
Johanna b1860.  (surviving bapt rec)
John, born before 1863?  (reported his father's death in 1884)
Catherine b1866. 
Michael b1872.
Jeremiah b1875
Timothy b1882 (surviving bapt rec)

I believe that Ellen Breen who seems to appear on both Johanna and Timothy's baptism records was some kind of relative to Catherine, though I am not sure what kind.

Ellen was married to a guy named Bart Cahallan or Cahallane, and lived in Laharan/Laharn, which is the same townland as the two Breen fathers that I was considering.  I don't think there is a civil marriage record that gives her father's name, though she probably would have been married after civil registration began.

Ellen died in 1920, reported age 81. Though reports of her age are all over the place.  54 in 1901.  50 in 1904.  68 in 1911

What is curious is I believe that Ellen's daughter Bridget married Catherine's son Daniel in 1904 in Manchester, NH, USA.  (it reads that Bridget's father was Patrick, not Bart, but I believe it is in reference to the same man).  But I have not viewed the church record for this marriage to see if it has any dispensation.

Offline Ghostwheel

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 06 February 21 15:34 GMT (UK) »
To make reference to the two couples I was originally considering for Catherine Breen's parents:

Maurice Breen and Johanna Sughrue, m1829 in Killorglin RC Parish, Johanna from Garrahadoo
Catherine b1842 in Laharan. 
No Ellen.  Michael, Mary, John, Johanna, and Honora (all but first born in Laharan)

John Breen and Mary Sughrue m1838 in Firies RC Parish, Mary from Kocknamucklagh
Catherine b1839, in Kocknamucklagh, then the couple moved to Killorglin Parish.  I suspect that John was from Killorglin. All other children born in Laharan.
Ellen might be Helen b1844
Patrick and John.

Of all this boatload of Breens, of both couples, the only one I am able to trace with full confidence is John Breen's son Patrick.  He married a woman from Rangue in 1904, which is next to Laharan.

Catherine's daughter Mary (married Tuohy) had several children who had Cahillan sponsors for their baptisms, which might emphasize a relationship to the previously mentioned Ellen Breen.

BTW, Heywood, that is an interesting baptism.  But I suspect that Brennan is a red herring.  All the civil birth records tell me that Catherine's maiden name was Breen, and I only ever wondered if Breen and Brennan were interchangeable on some level, but I think the answer to that is no.  I have seen "Breen" written before in a way that it would be easy to mistake for "Brennan", so that is my theory that the father's name really reads "John Breen."

Offline Ghostwheel

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 06 February 21 18:43 GMT (UK) »
John Breen appears on the tithes for Caunovree, along with Maurice Breen and Denis Breen, all on the same plot.  Caunovree is part of Laharan, according to Logainm.ie.

Oh, ho!  Found something interesting...

I'm not able to find "John Breen" on Griffith's Valuation, but I noticed "John Brien."  This John appears near people with surnames that were paired with different Breens in Laharan in various marriages.  Sugrue/Gallavan/Maley, also quite near some Cliffords.

Looking back at the 1849 Tenure Books, I can see definitely that this "John Brien" is actually "John Breen."

John Breen appears at #48 Laharan

Though crossed off, the name "Bryan Sweeny" appears at #49A.

Well, that's convinced me that John remarried to a woman named Honora Sweeny.

Online Maiden Stone

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Re: Would a step parent ever appear as a parent on a church marriage record?
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 06 February 21 18:54 GMT (UK) »
Dara O'Brien pronounces his surname "Breen" and corrects anyone who pronounces it "Bryan".
Cowban