Author Topic: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area  (Read 2636 times)

Offline Fenlon

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Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« on: Saturday 13 February 21 14:48 GMT (UK) »
This is my first post. I am hoping for  help in locating my GGG grandparents. My GG grandparents were Patrick Fenlon and his wife Catherine Ryan. They had at least 7 children born/baptized in County Wexford:

Anna Fenlon (b 25 Dec 1860 or 1862, d 1940 in in Marcellus, NY, USA)
Mary/Maria Fenlon (b 15 Jan 1865; baptized in Kilrush; married 1st Jeremy Ryan; 2nd John Forsyth; d 1951; lived in Kilkenny City in 1901, 1911, and 1915)
male (Thomas?) Fenlon (b 20 Dec 1867 in Moneydurtlow)
John Fenlon (b 27 Jan 1870 in Ballingale)
Aidan Fenlon (baptized 3 Jan 1875 in Marshalstown)
Patrick Fenlon (b 15 Apr 1878 in Ballaman)
Edward John Fenlon (b 31 Jan 1879; d 24 Apr 1965 in Marcellus, NY, USA)

Edward was my great-grandfather.

I am trying to find Patrick Sr.'s parents. Below I have listed 14 possible Patrick Fenlons b between 1834 and 1842.

Towns and dates listed are for baptism, which is likely close to, but different from, the home location or birth date.

(1) 1834 Patrick s/o Patk Fenlon & Mary Walshe; Maryborough
(2) 1840 Patrick s/o John Fenlon & Bridget; Killeshin
(3) 1835 Pat s/o Peter Fenlon & Mary Fitzpatrick; Tinryland
(4) 1837 Patrick s/o Michael Fenlon, Anne; Tullow
(5) 1842 Patt s/o Tom Fenlon & Betty McCabe; Tullow
(6) 1837 Patrick Fenlon (no parent info); Carlow
(7) 1840 Patrick s/o Patrick Fenlon & Elizabeth Butler; Carlow
( 8 ) 1842 Patrick s/o Patrick Fenlon & Bridget Lalor; Carlow
(9) 1833 Patt s/o Pierce? Fenlon & Mary Kervan; Myshall
(10) 1835 Patt s/o John Fenlon & Margt Byrne; Myshall
(11) 1836 Patrick s/o John Finlon & Mary Walsh; Paulstown
(12) 1840 Patt s/o Patt Fenlon & Winfred Neil; Borris
(13) 1837 Patk Fenelon s/o Jno. Fenelon & Mary; Saint Mullin’s
(14) 1839 Patrick s/o Mick Fenlon & Anne Kearney; Taghmon

1-14 above are fairly close to each other, here they are by County:
Carlow = 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13
Kilkenny = 11
Laois = 1, 2
Wexford = 14

I am trying to find Catherine's parents too. Family records indicate she was from County Cork. Below I have listed four Catherine Ryans from Cork. All were born in 1837.

There were 4 Catherine Ryans born in County Cork between 1832-1842.  By coincidence all of them were born in 1837.

(1) 1837 Catherine d/o Edmund Ryan and Ellen Foley; Charleville
(2) 1837 Catharine d/o Anthony Ryan and Hannah Murphy; Kantruk
(3) 1837 Catherine d/o John Ryan and Bridget Maria Jerrall; Cork City
(4) 1837 Catherine d/o Michael Ryan and Ellen Coleman; Glanmire

Thank you in advance for any advice or information you can provide.

Offline heywood

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Re: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 13 February 21 16:11 GMT (UK) »
Hello and welcome
I notice you have listed baptisms. If you don’t already have this site, it is good for civil records after 1864. It is free but you just have to prove you are not a robot.  :)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp

For example, here is Mary’s registration - born Balaman

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03581/2320184.pdf

And the ‘unknown’ child of 1867 b Moneydurtlow
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03462/2271304.pdf

Moneydurtlow townland - Ballaman is a neighbouring one
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03581/2320184.pdf

Heywood
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Offline heywood

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Re: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 13 February 21 16:26 GMT (UK) »
This looks like the marriage for Patrick and Catherine. (Bottom of left hand page)
16th January 1863 Ferns parish.
The residence shown is Ballingale, which is likely to be Catherine’s residence.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634066#page/178/mode/1up

This would probably exclude the first name or year you have for Anna.

https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/scarawalsh/ballycarney/tombrack/ballingale/
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Offline Fenlon

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Re: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 13 February 21 16:53 GMT (UK) »
Wow, thank you heywood!!!  I did not know about the Civil Records site that shows the original documents and the marriage record for Patrick and Catherine is a real find.  I have been looking for that for a long time.

I agree it calls into questions Anna's birth year, but various records had already indicated several different years.

Thank you again.


Offline Kiltaglassan

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Re: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 13 February 21 16:59 GMT (UK) »
Researching: Cuthbertson – Co. Derry, Scotland & Australia; Hunter – Co. Derry; Jackson – Co. Derry, Scotland & Canada; Scott – Co. Derry; Neilly – Co. Antrim & USA; McCurdy – Co. Antrim; Nixon – Co. Cavan, Co. Donegal, Canada & USA; Ryan & Noble – Co. Sligo

Offline heywood

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Re: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 13 February 21 17:25 GMT (UK) »
This could be the marriage of Thomas Fenlon -1895
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1895/10538/5838669.pdf

It shows that father Patrick is deceased.

Here is Thomas in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Marshalstown/Askunshin/677536/

I know you are looking further back but I am trying to confirm your records. I can’t spot some of the births.
Are any familly names used as Godparents to the children you have?
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Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 14 February 21 05:17 GMT (UK) »
Hello there OP, our ancestors would have known each other for certain!

I descend from the Sheridans of Moneydurtlow, and Doyles of Tombrack and Ballamon.

I have to say though that you may to be on a wrong track with your present approach to where Patrick Fenlon and wife originated.

I suspect you are making two mistakes that all too many US researchers make. The first is that is you are failing to take account of geography (that is distance), and social class, and the second is that you appear to be ignoring the fact that records simply don't exist for some of your most probable locations of origin.

Looking at your list of family members, I could tell immediately that Patrick must have been a laborer. That is shown by the fact that the baptism/birth locations keep changing. If he were a farmer, the location would not vary so much, or at all. Interesting that the first few birth registrations say he was a farmer, but later ones, and later marriage registration says laborer. What do US marriage records, for his children, say?

There is no sign of a Fenlon farm in the vicinity of Ferns in Griffith's Valuation (1853).

Assuming that Patrick was either a laborer or cottier, then we can say:
- That he probably lived and died in the same or adjacent parish to where he was born.
- Similarly, he probably married a woman from the same parish where he lived, or adjacent.
Distances further than that become more and more unlikely the further you go. Remember, any travel he did would have been on foot! Mobility for a farm laborer was very low, and many marriages were from the same or adjacent townlands, let alone parishes!

Hence most, probably all, of the possible births you list for Patrick can be rejected as unlikely.

Similarly, how would a laborer from rural Wexford meet and marry a woman from Cork? Almost impossible, unless she was somehow working in the vicinity as a servant of a family who might have brought her there.  And indeed, Heywood has pointed out that Catherine appears to have been residing in Ballingale in 1863, which is very close to the locations where they later lived.

The other big pitfall you are making is that you are considering births at improbable distances, while ignoring the fact that the local records, where they were probably born, simply aren't extant.  The most probable parishes of origin for both Patrick and Catherine are Kilrush, followed by Ferns and Marshalstown. Relevant records are available for Ferns, but not Kilrush or Marshalstown.

BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Fenlon

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Re: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 14 February 21 15:07 GMT (UK) »
Hi Kiltaglassan — Thanks for the welcome and for the links to the townland maps.  I only recently learned about townlands and these maps provide different information from Google maps.

heywood — I agree some births cannot be found, but as Wexflyer points out, some records do not exist. I am not sure about the Godparent aspect, but family names that I know of in the next generation (Patrick’s grandchildren) are:

Anna had 10 children (all born in Marcellus, NY) with her husband Michael Ward.
   (1) Timothy Fredrick; (2) Mary; (3) Patrick William; (4) Thomas; (5) Honora (Nora); (6) Michael J.; (7) Edward John; (8) Rosella Cecelia; (9) Robert James; (10) Katherine.

Mary/Maria had 3 children that I know of (all born in Co. Kilkenny) with her 1st husband Jeremey Ryan:
   (1) Peter; (2) Lillian; (3) Christina

My great-grandfather Edward J. Fenlon, Sr. had 5 children (all born in Marcellus, NY) with his wife Elizabeth Kilcoyne:
   (1) Edward John, Jr.; (2) Emmett Martin; (3) Clara Elizabeth; (4) Marcella Anne; (5) Mary Agnes.

Wexflyer — Thank you for all the context about how to approach finding Patrick and Catherine’s parents. I was puzzled by the fact that the baptism/birth records were constantly changing and did not know what to make of it.  Your explanation that Patrick was a laborer moving around makes sense. The fact that many records do not exist makes my goal very much harder!  I guess I have to hope that I come across some distant cousin that has a family bible that might provide some answers? I’m hoping someone might see this thread. I have the baptism record for Mary/Maria from Kilrush and in the margin next to it is written that she married John Forsyth (her second husband) on 1 Dec 1908 in Kilkenny City.  I have found her there on both the 1901 and 1911 census. The distance from Kilrush to Kilkenny is about 58 km.

I agree the Co. Cork birth for Catherine seems improbable, but it comes from my grandmother’s notes and she would have learned this talking to her father-in-law Edward J. Fenlon, Sr. about his mother. My grandmother’s extensive genealogical records have always proven to be correct, except for a few middle names being different.

That is very cool to think that our ancestors knew each other.  This is my first post on rootschat and I am so thankful for all the information.

Offline Fenlon

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Re: Fenlon family Moneydurtlow area
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 14 February 21 15:10 GMT (UK) »
I forgot to mention, here is a blog post that I wrote about my great-grandfather Edward John Fenlon, Sr. back in 2019:
https://emmettannefenlon.blogspot.com/2019/07/immigrant-ancestors-part-2-edward-j.html

It discusses that he was a laborer too, but he also kept a small farm.