Author Topic: Birth Certificate Questions  (Read 780 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 21 February 21 15:55 GMT (UK) »
Hi, My questions relate to a marriage in 1949 England.


Married in a Roman Catholic church, if either were from, what is now the Republic of Ireland, would anything else like documentation be required? That year, the Republic was formed.


Nothing to do with being married in the church but the marriage happened at a time when identity cards were required for travel between the islands of Ireland and Britain because of WW2. U.K. government introduced travel ID cards in 1940 and the Irish Free State required them under the Emergency Powers Act 1941. Travel documentation was required until 1952. An example https://www.papertotravel.com/MP-99  "... all persons should be in possession of a passport, travel identification card, travel permit card or other official document of identity. "
Ireland and Britain were in a Common Travel Area for immigration purposes before and after that period. 
Similar to heywood reply 2, my parents' marriage is noted in my mother's baptism register.
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Offline AntonyMMM

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 21 February 21 17:26 GMT (UK) »
Banns would have been read in church on 3 Sundays.

Not for an RC marriage.

You might get lucky though if the church kept its own marriage register as many RC parishes did. Often in Latin, they can sometimes give more information about those getting married than you would get from the civil register copy.

I found one in a Liverpool RC parish that confirmed the mother and father of the bride and groom (my ancestors) and crucially said where in Ireland they came from and even where the two witnesses came from, none of which (other than the father's name)  was on the "official" register.

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 21 February 21 23:58 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the replies.
I do not want to give names, as some may still be alive, their child certainly is.
They divorced, so I cannot be 100% certain he has died.
According to her relatives, he was from the Republic of Ireland, but from what I have found, they were wrong regarding other information they believed, so I assume it to be the case, but again not 100%.
They had a child 5 months before the marriage, probably not mentioned, but on the marriage certificate, they were living at different addresses.
He gave full information.
She did not give a father's name or occupation. Her parents had separated, so birth registered with the married name, but she married using her mother's maiden name. 
She was not RC, but would she have to provide birth details, with that being recorded in the notes?
It may be worth me contacting the church to see if they hold further information.


Offline Talacharn

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #12 on: Monday 22 February 21 00:06 GMT (UK) »
Hi Maiden Stone,
Thanks for your information. That is what I was wondering. Were permits required for all in the UK as well as Ireland? I assume she would have required documentation. Would that have been sufficient to marry rather than a birth certificate?

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #13 on: Monday 22 February 21 00:21 GMT (UK) »
Anthony reply 10. I assure you that marriage banns were read at Mass on 3 Sundays. They used to be read either before or after the sermon, along with death & funeral notices and death anniversaries + other important notices, at the church I attended in my youth in England. I've also seen them on the noticeboard in the church porch.
 See also Banns of Marriage 1862-1873 Cathedral Church of St. John the Evangelist, Salford, transcribed on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks www.lan-opc.org.uk/salford/Salford-Central/cathedral/index.html
 
 One of the many reasons for a marriage dispensation in the Catholic Church is a relaxation of banns for one or more Sundays if there was need for a quick wedding.

All the detail in that Liverpool marriage register seems to have been a custom in certain Irish parishes or dioceses. My granddad's 1st wife's family was from County Dublin. Her parents' marriage (1850's) has the same information as your Liverpool register. Registers for my grandma's and granddad's parents' marriages in Mayo don't even name their fathers. Therefore I know the name of my step-grandma's 4 grandparents but not names of my own grandparents' grandparents. An enquiry on here last week produced a mother's name on a church marriage register in County Wicklow. A marriage register for a Catholic church in Bury, Lancs. which dates from 1820's  includes names of mothers, abode of parents (usually county if in Ireland) and of witnesses. Then a new priest took over and recorded only minimal information.   
   
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Online heywood

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #14 on: Monday 22 February 21 08:00 GMT (UK) »
I agree with Maiden Stone. If I recall, ours were posted on the notice board in the porch, as you say and also at the local registry office.

Talacharn, I think it worth trying the church to see if there were any notes added to the original register. You might also ask if the parish registers have been passed to archives and if so, is there access.
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Offline AntonyMMM

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #15 on: Monday 22 February 21 09:53 GMT (UK) »
To clarify - banns in an RC church are not required, nor a legally valid preliminary for marriage (as CofE ones are). The marriage will still be shown as "by certificate" on the register showing that notice was given to the registrar.

I remember forthcoming marriages being read at at my own RC church as a child, but they don't legally have to be or be recorded - but as you say, some RC churches do seem to have kept them, so if they do exist always worth looking at.

She was not RC, but would she have to provide birth details, with that being recorded in the notes?

If the bride wasn't RC - she almost certainly would have been required to convert at that time. My (Methodist) mother did when she married my (RC) father in 1952.

Online heywood

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #16 on: Monday 22 February 21 10:49 GMT (UK) »
I fear we are digressing here.
 However, just to point out, without delving too much into the subject, the requirement to publish Banns was abolished in the Catholic Church in the 1980s.
I know nothing of the Church of England requirements.
Whilst conversion to the faith was encouraged, there was no requirement (forcing)  to do so. The other party, I think, and Maiden Stone will clarify, were asked to promise to raise any children in the Catholic faith.

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Offline Talacharn

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Re: Birth Certificate Questions
« Reply #17 on: Monday 22 February 21 11:23 GMT (UK) »
I have sent an email to the church asking.
I know the family turned against both of them. There were different issues, so it could be any one of them, or a combination of all.
Her family were church-goers, but CofE, so expectations of the Catholic church may also have contributed.
The marriage ended soon after and the child was placed in a care home.
Thanks for all of your replies, I am gaining a better understanding of what happened at that time.