Author Topic: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification  (Read 560 times)

Offline T1

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 20 February 21 18:07 GMT (UK) »
Hi again,

Royal Marines were always a member of either the "Plymouth Division" "Portsmouth Division" or "Chatham Division".  These were a little like regiments in the army, although more for administrative purposes.  But being assigned to one of these did not necessarily mean he was in one of those three locations.  Just the same you can be in the "Royal Regiment of Scotland" but be serving in Northern Ireland or Afghanistan.

Typically you may not see locations in an RM record, except for specially formed units such as "RM Battn Egypt". So you need to identify the unit (such as Co. 47) or the ships named in his record, then research separately where they were actually located during those dates.

T

Offline Ayashi

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 20 February 21 18:14 GMT (UK) »
Thanks again!

I suppose if nothing else this has made me gain a new understanding of his records! Theo's military service documents were one of the first things I obtained when I started doing FH and apparently completely failed to read them properly.

Most of the "co" column are letters, not all of them I can read (need a better copy in front of me). Assuming we are talking about after being in the recruit depot but before going to Egypt, co. 47 will be our people. Before getting his records I had no idea he even left Plymouth.

As an aside, something else I'm terrible at- how old do you think he looks in that photo?

Offline T1

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 20 February 21 18:28 GMT (UK) »
Age is pretty hard to tell with these guys isn't it - as you probably know the moustache was a formal requirement for regular soldiers and marines.  He looks about 30 to my 21st century eyes, but that probably makes him about 25.


Offline Ayashi

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 20 February 21 18:50 GMT (UK) »
That's another thing that is concerning me a bit. Theophilus was born in 1863, so at enlistment (1882) he was 19 and he'd be 21 coming into the Sudan conflict. He looks significantly older in the photograph, but then again my grandfather was apparently already balding in his early 20s so some men are a bit disadvantaged I guess! I have a photograph of his grandson aged 27 and there's a reasonable comparison there imo.
-Edit- that said, he didn't get awarded his first medal until 1886. I don't know how long it would have taken to actually get to him as well. That would give him an extra couple of years into mid-20s... but your dating of 1880s-early 1890s would be spot on. It's just the lack of medals that complicates things here. If he had them already, why wasn't he wearing them?

One thing that made me chuckle a bit is that the shadow under his nose kinda makes it look like he shaved half his moustache and forgot the other half!

In my defence re. Plymouth, he's there on every census (1891, 1901, 1911), married there (1887), his four bio children were born there (1888, 1890, 1895, 1898) and he died there (1916) so perhaps I can be mildly forgiven for assuming he didn't go anywhere else.


- Another edit- my cousin's partner says that the single stripe on his sleeve suggests a Corporal? Would that be the case?

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 20 February 21 21:37 GMT (UK) »
Badges of rank are worn in the upper arm, the chevron on his lower left arm is for three years good conduct.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline Ayashi

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 20 February 21 21:52 GMT (UK) »
Aha! The question is, does 3 years good conduct help us with a date?

His character and ability were highly regarded right from the beginning but I note that he was recommended for a medal in 1889, 1890 and 1891 before being granted his LS&GC medal in 1892. Could that be related?

Offline tonepad

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 20 February 21 22:10 GMT (UK) »
The time period needed for a LS&GC medal is not directly related to the 3 years for a good conduct stripe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Long_Service_and_Good_Conduct_Medal_(1848)


Tony
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Offline Ayashi

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 20 February 21 23:05 GMT (UK) »
I suppose in the end more will be known by his movements and supposedly appearance in Canada. How would I go about finding out more with regards to specific company movements?

Offline Ayashi

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Re: Advice please- buying military medals & military uniform identification
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 21 February 21 18:38 GMT (UK) »
I'm still fairly 'dog with a bone' about the date at the moment.

I've been told that medals for Sudan weren't issued until 1888 at the earliest.

There's a note in his record regarding him as Lance-Corporal in 1885 (full Corporal in 1893). Would there have been an obvious mark on the uniform for a LC? I'm also assuming that good conduct badges were not represented by physical items?

I suppose it would be fairly pointless asking someone to take a punt at his height?  ;D

I'm fairly obsessive about this at the moment because although the signs are good, if the picture ends up dating in the early 1880s the age becomes a conflict.

The historian I've been speaking to doesn't know how to follow the company movements either so I'm still in the dark there.