Mary Ann Thomas - 'wrong' father on marriage cert?

[Ladyhawk]

I've taken a chance and ordered the GRO certificate for the death of that 74 year old James. Would be good to count him in or out.

Please let us know how you get on - fingers crossed

How strange about Albert/Charles.

Yes very strange as he marries and dies as Albert Samuel Green 

I had a quick look to see if I could find him on 1861 census as either Albert S or Charles E born Bromley occ Baker........I've only found this person and he's not with his family and his possible birth registration would suggest he was illegitimate 
Posting the details anyway so you can take a look to see what you think to either rule him in or out

1861 Piece:   408 Folio:   30 Page 8
22 Burrage Road
Baker Shop   
William Blacknell   57 Head, Baker
Sarah Blacknell   47
James Blacknell   12
Edward Blacknell   11
Frances Blacknell   8
SAMUEL GREEN 23 (1838), Bromley Kent, occ BAKER
Eliza Wright   16

and on the 1851 & 1841 census in Sevenoaks Union Workhouse there is

SAMUEL Green age 14 (c1837)Bromley Kent, pauper
SAMUEL Green age 3 (c1838)

Samuel Green mmn blank   
1837  S Quarter in BROMLEY  Volume 05  Page 31   

FreeREG does have this Green baptism in Bromley

baptism 08 Aug 1837
Samuel Green parents James occ. Chaise Driver & Maria

and this

marriage 1 Mar 1838 

Samuel Green occ Baker, widower, father James, blacksmith
spouse Mary Ann Bentley

Albert Samuel Green father's name given as James occ postman when he married 

[antonymark]

Thank you. Oh crumbs what a tangle!

In the workhouse aged 3. How sad.

Expected despatch for death certificate is 15th March. I'll report back.

Tony.

[antonymark]

"Freereg does have this Green baptism in Bromley
baptism 08 Aug 1837
Samuel Green parents James occ. chaise driver & Maria"

"Albert Samuel Green father's name given as James occ. postman when he married"

Post ~chaise , (Hist.) travelling carriage hired from stage to stage or drawn by horses so hired.- OED

Does that make a link? 

[Ladyhawk]

Post ~chaise , (Hist.) travelling carriage hired from stage to stage or drawn by horses so hired.- OED

Does that make a link?

Very possible………another definition horse-drawn carriage used for transporting passengers or mail, especially in the 18th and early 19th centuries.

Have found a MARIA Green also in Seven Oaks Union Workhouse on 1841 census SAMUEL Green age 3 is on a different page

MARIA Green age 45 - she’s noted as born in this county
HO107; Piece: 485; Folio: 25; Page: 4

SAMUEL Green age 3 - he’s noted as born in this county
HO107; Piece: 485; Folio: 26; Page: 7

Maria’s death

MARIA Green age 49
1843  M Quarter in SEVENOAKS UNION  Volume 05  Page 327

another Bromley baptism FreeREG

parents James Green, Chaise Driver & Maria
James Green 20 Jul 1834 (1841 census with Samuel in Severn Oaks workhouse)
in 1851  HO107; Piece: 1613; Folio: 217; Page: 6 James Green age 16 Errand boy in Seven Oaks
and he is in Lewisham 1861, James Green Asst. age 27 Bromley occ Baker journeyman
Piece: 413 Folio: 33 Page 24

This is the only death I could see in Bromley for a
James Green on 4 Mar 1838 his age 29 

Not found a marriage in Kent on FreeREG for a James Green to Maria  ?   

[antonymark]

Kent Marriages and Banns on FindMyPast has this one...

11 May 1834
Sundridge, St. Mary
James Green, bachelor
Maria Lee, spinster
Witnesses Thomas Stevens, Mary Denney

Had to get the road atlas out....  Sundridge is a way from Bromley but really handy for Sevenoaks!

[antonymark]

another Bromley baptism FreeREG

parents James Green, Chaise Driver & Maria
James Green 20 Jul 1834 (1841 census with Samuel in Severn Oaks workhouse)
in 1851  HO107; Piece: 1613; Folio: 217; Page: 6 James Green age 16 Errand boy in Seven Oaks
and he is in Lewisham 1861, James Green Asst. age 27 Bromley occ Baker journeyman
Piece: 413 Folio: 33 Page 24

James Green in 1861 at Lewisham is down as married....

Marriages Mar 1856 Bromley 2a 226
GREEN, James + GREEN, Mary Ann (on same page)

There is a married Mary Ann Green in 1861 at Armstrong Street, Plumstead (RG09/Pc.408/F.105/Pg.28) with sons James born circa 1857 Lewisham and Frederick born circa 1860 Woolwich.

Births Jun 1857 Lewisham 1d 654
GREEN, James Henry (mmn GREEN)

Looking at my 1938 A-Z, Armstrong Street is just around the corner from Burrage Road where Samuel is in 1861.

It looks like James has died by 1871 as Mary Ann Green is a widowed charwoman at Farwig Lane, Bromley (RG10/Pc.873/F.26/Pg.43). The same two boys are with her plus two daughters Mary E born circa 1863, Stepney and Ada E born circa 1865, Bromley.

Births mar 1865 Bromley 2a 283
GREEN, Ada Ellen (mmn Green)

Googling about with different names and places led me to the Kent OPC website which has this Bromley baptism..

Sts Peter & Paul 5 Feb 1865
Ada Ellen Green
James and Mary Ann, Bromley, Baker

and this marriage..

Sts Peter & Paul 24 Feb 1856
James Green, bachelor of full age, baker, of Bromley son of James Green, chaise driver
Mary Ann Green, spinster of full age, of Bromley daughter of Richard Green, chaise driver
Witnesses Sarah Isted and John Green

I'm pretty much convinced that Samuel, Albert Samuel and Charles E. Green are indeed the same man. Quite why the changes I can only wonder. A lovely conundrum to while away an evening over a glass or two.

Tony.

[antonymark]

Not sure about this burial for James due to age but thought I’d post as same burial place in Epsom as Ann & William

James Thomas Age:   74
Burial 11 Nov 1880 Epsom, St Martin
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/190553939/james-thomas

The GRO certificate for this man arrived today.

Fifth November 1880 Union Workhouse Epsom / James Thomas / Male / 74 years / Labourer noc / Paralysis Softening of Brain Certified by W.W. Collard LRCP / C. Cooke Master Union Workhouse Epsom / Thirtieth November 1880 / James Andrews Registrar

Nothing there to tie this poor man to anyone's family. How sad.

Tony.