Author Topic: 20th Century Jewish brick wall  (Read 2427 times)

Offline JeremyS

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20th Century Jewish brick wall
« on: Tuesday 09 March 21 16:42 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

I'm fairly new to genealogy but have really enjoyed it so far & have traced almost all branches of my family back to the 18th Century which has been so interesting. However on one branch I am totally stuck in the 20th Century on & I have searched and searched but to no avail.

I am looking for a Harry Moss, for whom I have his marriage certificate, a couple of later census returns & not much else. Here is all I know:

He married Rose Phillips "in the register office by certificate before me" (according to the Rites & Ceremonies of the Church of England is crossed out) in the District of London City on 12th June 1913. Harry is listed as a Barman, aged 24, & both he & Rose have the address of 12 Providence Place, Aldgate E.C. Harry's father is "Moses Moss, clothier (deceased). The witnesses both have the surname Isaacs.

I then have 1926 & 1939 addresses for him, in Auckland Road, Bow (now Zealand Road) and in 1939 in Dagenham, Essex. I know a little about his later life but no one knows anything about his early life.

His wife Rose Phillips' family were all Jewish & lived in Aldgate/Spitalfields/Whitechapel etc from the 1700s, probably German/Dutch/Polish Jews. The family memories of Harry are all mixed up...some have said that he spoke English as a second language, others not. It is of common agreement that he was Jewish. He also worked as a Motor Driver & apparently sold ice creams & bread from a travelling cart by a London Park. I have also searched for his father Moses Moss & can find nothing concrete on him, it's a very common name. And I am aware that Moss could well have been a name changed or given at a port of entry.

I have tried searching on Jewish Gen but haven't got far. Any help would be extremely welcome & appreciated. Thanks.

Online Gallicrow

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 18:59 GMT (UK) »
The 1939 register gives you the likely DoB for Harry and Rose, 6 Mar 1889 and 29 Mar 1889 respectively. I'm pretty sure that is indeed them in Dagenham because the GRO record of their daughter, Vera, has a MMN of Phillips (birth registered in Q2 1927).

There is a good match for Harry's Christening on Family Search - 5th May 1889 in Colne Engaine, Essex. Father Moses Moss, mother Charlotte Moss. Ancestry might have the scan of this record and if so that might contain more information.
Eva family in Devon and Cornwall.
Bowdidge family in Devon and Dorset.

Online Josephine

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 20:32 GMT (UK) »
There is a good match for Harry's Christening on Family Search - 5th May 1889 in Colne Engaine, Essex. Father Moses Moss, mother Charlotte Moss. Ancestry might have the scan of this record and if so that might contain more information.

The image isn't available on Ancestry; however, the index entry contains a link to the image at this website: https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk . You can pay to view just one image or you can purchase a subscription.

Ancestry also has an index entry showing the marriage of a Moses Moss and Charlotte Hume in Essex on Oct. 21, 1875 (with a link to the Essex Archives Online website).

Neither index entry lists an occupation for Moses Moss but one or both of the images would.

Regards,
Josephine
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Offline Annie65115

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« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 21:16 GMT (UK) »

There is a good match for Harry's Christening on Family Search - 5th May 1889 in Colne Engaine, Essex. Father Moses Moss, mother Charlotte Moss. Ancestry might have the scan of this record and if so that might contain more information.

Neither Ancestry nor FindMyPast has an image of this baptism; however it was performed in a CofE church. If Harry was Jewish then I guess that this couldn't be him. If it is him, I guess he wasn't Jewish!

ETA: Moses and Charlotte Moss with their children including Harry are in the censuses in Halstead, Essex, and Moses was consistently a moulder in an iron works. So I suspect this is not the right family.

Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline JeremyS

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 21:32 GMT (UK) »
Thanks a lot for looking into this for me & I appreciate your time. However I had seen this Harry Moss with a Moses Moss as a father but I had dismissed it for 3 reasons. This is not to say that it is not him, but just why I had serious doubts it was him;

1) Harry Moss of Earl's Colne was Baptised. Whilst there is of course a chance that my great-grandad wasn't in fact Jewish as my living family believes, the fact that I know for a fact that his wife was Jewish would make that less possible. I believe in 1913 it would have been quite unusual for a gentile to marry a Jew, especially to move into what was at the time the Jewish slums in order to do so.

2) Moses Moss, father of Harry, is listed on Harry's wedding certificate as a Clothier (a very common Jewish profession), whereas the Moses Moss of Earl's Colne is some kind of (Metal?) Melder.

3) There is a Harry H Moss, born 18/10/1890, who in the 1939 census is living in Colne Engaine, 2km from Earl's Colne, who I think is much more likely to be the Harry Moss you have mentioned. I know that my great-grandfather was in the 1939 census living in Dagenham.

If you are able to keep helping I would be very appreciative. Thanks

Offline JeremyS

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 21:34 GMT (UK) »
Annie65115 I have just seen you were writing a similar thought at the same time as me :)

Offline sandiep

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 21:38 GMT (UK) »
there is a moses moss on the 1881 census son of Zachariah and Leah Moss and both father and son are Clothiers
Reg Kensington  folio 64 piece 18
it is a large family so maybe you could find more
Pender, Raphael,Lambert,Digby,Stent,
Dowell,cornish,mulley,Death,Rosier,
East End,Suffolk,Essex,Cornwall,Devon,London,  middlesex, hertfordshire                                      Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annie65115

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 21:44 GMT (UK) »
1911 - there's a Moss family in Wandsworth, headed by Elizabeth, who's a widow. She said she was married 35 years previously. Children born in London and then Brighton before obviously the family moved back to London. One of the children is Harry,age 22, b London.

Tracing the family back I found them in Brighton in 1901; father Harry Moss,age 52, a clothier. Children include Henry, age 13. Some of the children's names would suggest to me quite a high chance of the family being either Jewish or non-con.

The MMN for the children seems to have been Joseph so looking for possible marriages, I found this one:

Marriages Jun 1876   (>99%)
Joseph    Elizabeth        London C.    1c   157   
MOSES    Henry         London C.    1c   157    
Wacks    Amelia         London C.    1c   157    
Woolf    Joseph         London C.    1c   157    

I've go no further than that as yet but I think this bears further investigation.
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline Annie65115

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 21:50 GMT (UK) »
The 1891 census for this family gives more detail:

Henry Moss age 30, wardobe dealer (old clothes), b Bishopsgate,London
Elizabeth Moss age 28 b Aldgate
Rachel age 4b Mile End
Ellen age 3 b Paddington
Zachariah age 1 b Paddington
Maria (?) age 3 months
and there must have been money in old clothes as the household also included a domestic nurse and a general servant.

I wonder if "Moss" was the anglicisation of "Moses" and hence the confusion on the the future marriage certificate.
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)