Author Topic: 20th Century Jewish brick wall  (Read 2407 times)

Offline Annie65115

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 21:56 GMT (UK) »
This seems to be the birth registration of the Henry/Harry in the family I've found:

    MOSS, HENRY        JOSEPH     
GRO Reference: 1888  M Quarter in FULHAM  Volume 01A  Page 204

(It's the year before the yob given on the 1939 register but IME people regularly shaved a year or two off their age then!)
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline JeremyS

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 22:13 GMT (UK) »
Wow this is fantastic research, thanks Annie. I have 2 questions;

1) Would I be right in saying that it would be unusual in 1913 for a son of a family who could afford domestic help, to end up living in a slum marrying a woman from a very poor background?

2) If this is indeed the correct Harry Moss, & he got his Dad's name wrong on the marriage certificate, is there any way I could ever be certain of it? With my limited experience it seems that this link of father's name on a marriage certificate is the best way of finding a continuum to the previous generation..?

I have tried to attached Harry & Rose's marriage certificate but I can't get the file size small enough. One fact I forgot to mention was that it says Moses Moss (deceased) so I know he died pre-1913.

Would I be right in saying that this certificate would just be them officiating what had already taken place in a Synagogue, hence why they are already listed as living together & that it says "by certificate before me"? I have searched for Synagogue records on ancestry & JewishGen but not had any luck.

Offline Josephine

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 22:31 GMT (UK) »
Would I be right in saying that this certificate would just be them officiating what had already taken place in a Synagogue, hence why they are already listed as living together & that it says "by certificate before me"? I have searched for Synagogue records on ancestry & JewishGen but not had any luck.

In my experience, if the marriage took place in a synagogue, that would be noted on the certificate you would get from the GRO (it would include the name of the synagogue and the officiating rabbi), but I'm not an expert in this area.

Regards,
Josephine
England: Barnett; Beaumont; Christy; George; Holland; Parker; Pope; Salisbury
Scotland: Currie; Curror; Dobson; Muir; Oliver; Pryde; Turnbull; Wilson
Ireland: Carson; Colbert; Coy; Craig; McGlinchey; Riley; Rooney; Trotter; Waters/Watters


Offline Josephine

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 22:38 GMT (UK) »
2) If this is indeed the correct Harry Moss, & he got his Dad's name wrong on the marriage certificate, is there any way I could ever be certain of it? With my limited experience it seems that this link of father's name on a marriage certificate is the best way of finding a continuum to the previous generation..?

I have tried to attached Harry & Rose's marriage certificate but I can't get the file size small enough. One fact I forgot to mention was that it says Moses Moss (deceased) so I know he died pre-1913.

Do you have Harry Moss's death record or date and location of death? Do you know where Harry was buried? If he has a traditional tombstone in a Jewish cemetery, the inscription should include his father's name.

Regards,
Josephine
England: Barnett; Beaumont; Christy; George; Holland; Parker; Pope; Salisbury
Scotland: Currie; Curror; Dobson; Muir; Oliver; Pryde; Turnbull; Wilson
Ireland: Carson; Colbert; Coy; Craig; McGlinchey; Riley; Rooney; Trotter; Waters/Watters

Offline JeremyS

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 22:53 GMT (UK) »
I have, but just as an index, before this I hadn't thought there much point but now you say this, yes I will order it from the GRO asap.

Here is the index;

Name Harry H Moss
Death Age 66
Birth Date1888
Registration Date Oct 1954
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Romford
Inferred County Essex
Volume 5a Page378

Offline Annie65115

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 22:59 GMT (UK) »
The death certificate won't say where he's buried.

Did he attend synagogue in Romford? If so, it might be worth getting in touch to see if they have any family or burial records.

Re possible changes in family fortune - yep, fortunes can certainly change, who knows what might have happened? Rags to riches and back to rags in 3 generations was not unheard of. And this was the era before any sort of state-provided safety net if things went wrong.
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline Annie65115

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 23:07 GMT (UK) »
I found an obit for Henry Moss, the well known clothier of Brighton; he died in 1901 and was buried in the Jewish cemetery. There was quite a lot of interesting info included but I can't replicate it on my phone, sorry.

It mentioned that his oldest son had recently left for service in South Africa - presumably the Boer war. Was there any mention in your family of someone who fought in that conflict? Do you know the names of any of Harry's siblings?
Bradbury (Sedgeley, Bilston, Warrington)
Cooper (Sedgeley, Bilston)
Kilner/Kilmer (Leic, Notts)
Greenfield (Liverpool)
Holyland (Anywhere and everywhere, also Holiland Holliland Hollyland)
Pryce/Price (Welshpool, Liverpool)
Rawson (Leicester)
Upton (Desford, Leics)
Partrick (Vera and George, Leicester)
Marshall (Westmorland, Cheshire/Leicester)

Offline JeremyS

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 23:15 GMT (UK) »
I will indeed check the Dagenham & Romford synagogues, that is a good idea, thanks.

I'm now even questioning whether that is the correct death index!

To make matters worse I hoped there would be extended family I didn't know who might have clues. I know Harry & Rose had an eldest son called Morris b. circa 1913 (or poss Maurice) but he seems to have vanished off the face of the earth. A daughter Vera b.1927 I have found in records, marrying a Patrick Cullinan, but appears not to have had kids. Their other daughter Julia/Julie b. 1919 died young. Which just leaves my grandmother Rachel, b. 1916.

Offline Josephine

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Re: 20th Century Jewish brick wall
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 09 March 21 23:29 GMT (UK) »
The death certificate won't say where he's buried.

Correct. In my experience, if you're asking for a look-up from a cemetery or place of worship (or anyone, really), they'll want the date of death, to make it easier to do their search.

Regards,
Josephine
England: Barnett; Beaumont; Christy; George; Holland; Parker; Pope; Salisbury
Scotland: Currie; Curror; Dobson; Muir; Oliver; Pryde; Turnbull; Wilson
Ireland: Carson; Colbert; Coy; Craig; McGlinchey; Riley; Rooney; Trotter; Waters/Watters