A Wedding photo family Conundrum.

[Jool]

I think the soldier is the same person who is crouching on the right side of the wedding photo.  On both photos you can see his left eye is slightly more open/larger than his right, and also his left eyebrow is arched higher than his right.  He also has a noticeable "cupid's bow".

[This Boy]

Thank you Jools.

I would never have thought to figure that out but the evidence you point too is compelling. He just doesn't look 19 on the wedding photo but I am convinced you are correct as the peculiarity of your observation is powerful indeed.

[This Boy]

So, I have spent the evening sorting out William Turnbull b. 1857, his mother Elizabeth Jane b.1832 and her parents Willian b 1795 and Margaret Turnbull nee Harding b 1788. I added all William's Turnbull aunts and uncles: Mary b. 1820, Margaret b. 1825, Thomas b. 1825 and James b. 1830. I managed to get a pretty full and convincing set of evidence for each. I am really pleased and grateful Maddys52 that you have provided the keys to unlock the problem of 'Jane' that I highlighted in my first post. Yes, it is clearly Elizabeth Jane with a 1908 death. The missing child, Margaret too - I am convinced you are right in everything you found and suggested.

Given two of the children of William and Sarah Ann have the maiden name of mother as Tipping then that must be more likely than Tiffin as recorded on John James Birth Certificate. My early trawl has not really turned up much particularly useful for a Sarah Ann Tipping though. There is a birth in Q4 1862 Carlisle 10b/422 and an 1881 census of a 19 year old Sarah Ann Tipping lodging at Trinity Buildings in Caldewgate and working as a cotton bobbin winder. Both fit quite well but I lack parents, an 1871 census for her and especially the elusive marriage to William Turnbull which has always been a big objective and a puzzling omission.

With regard to my other puzzle regarding the whereabouts of my John James Turnbull on the 1891 census, I think the one I suggested where there is a 5 year old John James Turnbull, born in Botcherby and living with Smith grandparents is increasingly unlikely to be my John James. I have found another John James Turnbull baptised in Carlisle to a David and Jane Turnbull (no maiden name) on 7/9/1884. I suspect this one is the Smith grandson leaving my John James still missing in the 1891.

Any help or suggestions with these final issues will be greatly appreciated.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Not sure if it helps, but it looks like John & Janet Smith's daughter Jane may have died unmarried in 1888, so not sure she could be the Mrs Jane Turnbull baptising John James

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Might this be connected?

Marriages Sep 1874  Carlisle    10b   693   
Brown    Jemima          
Ivison    Charles        
Johnson    William        
Tiffin    Sarah Ann    <<<<

Just not sure how it works with a birth date of 1862!

Further digging shows she marries William Johnson,  was born c1851 and probably dies in 1883

Well at least you can cross her off

[This Boy]

Thank you Mabel. Your first discovery makes my head hurt. Just as I thought I had worked out an explanation. I cannot puzzle how this can be but I shall ponder and am very grateful. Yes, your second point reflects what Ancestry kept throwing at me as hints over recent months. The ancestry algorithm or however they deduce hints was obsessed with conflating Johnsons into the mix.

[maddys52]

Both fit quite well but I lack parents, an 1871 census for her and especially the elusive marriage to William Turnbull which has always been a big objective and a puzzling omission.

A possibility:

In 1871 in Botchergate
Joseph TIPPNG    50   
Elizabeth               39
Sarah                    7
Hannah                  5
Alice                      2
RG10/5217 pg49

Note that the family next door is Henry and Hannah (?) LOWTHER - a coincidence with the name of William's brother? 

[This Boy]

Thank you Maddys52.

I had been wondering where Lowther came from. I have gone back on Williams Turnbull line a couple of generations and the Lowther name does not appear so it is not unreasonable to expect it was a maiden name of Sarah's mother or grandmother perhaps. I wonder if those living next door to the Tippings in 1871 were relatives. On the balance of probabilities I think the record you mention is the right one, especially given the Lowther name next door. I will have another look at this today.

The key seems to be finding the marriage. Family History is often like doing a complex jigsaw only to find one missing piece left at the end. So frustrating 

I wonder what people think is the most likely reason for the missing marriage? A mistranscription - (but surely not of both names and so badly that we cannot find it), a marriage abroad (very simple working class folks so it doesn't seem likely, that they didn't actually get married but just lived and acted as such, some other reason. I don't really understand Gretna marriages but am consious that it was pretty close to Carlisle.

I strongly believe the marriage to have been circa 1882 as the 1911 census records 29 years of marriage. The first child is born in 1893. In 1881 both are recorded as unmarried, William as an unemployed farm labourer and Sarah Ann as Cotton Bobbin Weaver. By 1891 the couple are recorded as married and have two living children although not with them on census night. 

[Ruskie]

Gretna marriages were my first port of call - a quick look didn’t find them though I didn’t check variations of surnames - I will have another look.   

Added: no luck I’m afraid. I’m not sure if the records are complete on Ancestry though.