Author Topic: Tithe Applotment books - minimum age of of occupier  (Read 862 times)

Offline josey

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Tithe Applotment books - minimum age of of occupier
« on: Friday 19 March 21 09:28 GMT (UK) »
Apologies to those who may be tired of my search for the parents of Philip Murray born 1814 .......

I have searched the Tithe Applotment books at http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625725/004625725_00118.pdf
and found a Philip Murray in Killeen, Borrisokane, Co Tipperary [all good & ties in with confirmed information so far] but the date of the books is stated as 1825 when my ancestor Philip would have been 11 [this age is taken from army & death records]. Does this indicate that there was an older Philip in Killeen at the time? Or may the date of the books have actually been later or spanned a period rather than one specific year? 1814 Philip married in Borrisokane in 1831.

Thanks for any help.
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Tithe Applotment books - minimum age of of occupier
« Reply #1 on: Friday 19 March 21 23:04 GMT (UK) »
Apologies to those who may be tired of my search for the parents of Philip Murray born 1814 .......

I have searched the Tithe Applotment books at http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625725/004625725_00118.pdf
and found a Philip Murray in Killeen, Borrisokane, Co Tipperary [all good & ties in with confirmed information so far] but the date of the books is stated as 1825 when my ancestor Philip would have been 11 [this age is taken from army & death records]. Does this indicate that there was an older Philip in Killeen at the time? Or may the date of the books have actually been later or spanned a period rather than one specific year? 1814 Philip married in Borrisokane in 1831.

Thanks for any help.

The names are the names of those responsible for paying the tythe. I don't think an 11 year old could have that responsibility.
As for the date the NAI sometimes get that wrong.  Check yourself - look forward and back through the images. The specific date the valuation was completed is usually given at the start or end, or failing that, the date of the composition certificate will be on the certificate.

All tht said, you also have to bear in mind that ages were often actually 10+ years older than stated in 19th century records. So, your 11 year old could well have been over 21!

A final consideration - would he have joined an army if he held land?
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline josey

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Re: Tithe Applotment books - minimum age of of occupier
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 20 March 21 10:51 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Wexflyer; all good points. I will certainly check again the date of that tithe applotment book. I am pretty certain of Philip's age, the army record both on enlistment and discharge, plus ages on 1841, 1851 army censuses and date at death in 1864.

I did also find out recently [see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=839182.msg7131927#msg7131927] that a James Murray, who I suspect is either grandfather or father to Philip, petitioned in 1834 for his second son to be appointed as either a water guard or a policeman. I am hoping to obtain copies of these documents which may name James' elder and second sons - one says the elder was serving in Ceylon [sic] in the 61st regiment. Philip enlisted in the 87th in 1837.  I felt the date may be relevant if Philip foresaw food shortages even if he held land. 

I am currently researching to see if I can find Murrays in parts of the 61st in 1834. Muster rolls may be the only way; this soldier may be Philip's brother whose baptism I can find.
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline Maggsie

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Re: Tithe Applotment books - minimum age of of occupier
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 20 March 21 12:39 GMT (UK) »
Josey,
Is the record you saw, this one in Terryglass?
The 3rd one down.........
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/results.jsp?surname=murray&firstname=phi*&county=Tipperary&parish=&townland=&search=Search
There are 2 x Philip Murray's.
Terryglass is about a 3 miles from Borrisokane.
There is also a Killeen in Borrisokane. Then another on the Birr road near Riverstown.
This map, I plotted Killeen Borrisokane go to the left find Terryglass zoom in and you will see Killeen.
https://www.bing.com/maps?q=killeen+borrisokane&cvid=02f88552498f40e2a9a2a8596d819f2a&aqs=edge..69i57.9903j0j1&pglt=299&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531
Maggsie


Offline josey

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Re: Tithe Applotment books - minimum age of of occupier
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 20 March 21 13:16 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for looking, Maggsie. You have helped me before with these Murrays!! I have more information since then. I had no idea there were so many Killeens  ::). It was the Anan Killeen one I had found [see added note below]. Might one person have had 2 plots of land?  I do know the Upperchurch Philip Murray is not my ancestor, though possibly related somehow. I do know too that my Murrays were in the Killeen north of Borrisokane from newspaper reports with Mary & James Murray as witnesses.

Reference of a James Murray as a witness
Tipperary Free Press 26 August 1829
John Leger, Robert Lambert, George Lambert & J Reade, accused of murdering Daniel Hawkins, John Hogan, John Farrell, Denis Mealy 27 Jun 1829.
I live in Borrisokane. I went along to the funeral of Smith. I saw Hawkins lying dead near the forge after being shot by Leger. " Cross examined "I passed Ledger's on the Saturday before but did not take any notice of it. I heard some people say Leger fired some shots on fair day; I was at mass on Sunday morning; did not hear any of the people speak angrily about Smiths's death; did not  hear any of them speaking about Leger inside or outside the chapel; I believe that there were more men than women at the funeral ; did not see one stone thrown, and I don't think they could have been thrown without me seeing them; don't recollect a stick in the crowd; was in the regiment of the 5th Dragoon Guards; never expressed resentment against Leger".

A Mary Murray as witness
Tipperary Free Press 29 August 1829
A Mary Murray gave evidence in trial of John Leger for shooting "I lived in Borrisokane on 26th June - my house is on Portumna road other side of Ledger's ; left my house to go to town about 7 in the evening. stopped as  heard firing, my house is about 200 yds from Ledger's"
Clonmel Herald 29 August 1829
"Mary Murray with an infant in her hands that she was taking to her daughter's to whom the child belonged"

A James Murray appears in the 1827 Tithe Applotment with 5 acres.

ADDED: In Anan Killeen there was also a Michael Hogan; Michael was sponsor in 1832 of one of my Philip & his wife Anne Sheedy children & Philip's sister Judith married Michael Hogan in 1832.
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON