Mary Waldie 1810 - Scottish naming conventions and death certificate accuracy

[DudelsackHogg]

I am very interested in find out more about the parents of Mary Waldie b1810 - d1875
Her death certificate 1875 - lists her age at death as 63 years.

Her birth certificate (1810) just lists the father- Thomas. I think it’s the right one but the dates are not quite right.

B. 20.12.1810 - D. 01.01.1875 = 64 years and 12 days. I had to work that out and the 63 years is not as far out as I’d initially thought.

Her death certificate lists the father as Thomas Waldie (weaver) and the mother as Margaret Stevenson.
She married William Hogg around 1830.

I could not find a marriage certificate of Mary Waldie and William Hogg, nor a death certificate for her mother Margaret.

My problem:

According to Scottish naming conventions according to "The Scottish Onomastic Child-naming Pattern," by John Barrett Robb:

The first son was named for his father's father.
The second son was named for his mother's father.

And the daughters:

The first daughter was named for her mother's mother.
The second daughter was named for her father's mother.

In my tree this pattern is followed apart from the name of the first daughter:

First son - Andrew correct
Second son Thomas - correct
First daughter - Helen -incorrect
Second daughter - Elizabeth -correct.

The name Margaret does not appear in my tree elsewhere - but Helen does. Indeed, one of the other sons of William and Mary has a daughter named Helen Elizabeth - I assume after his grandmothers.

I’m left thinking the following -

Margaret was known as Helen.
There was some sort of family rift and Margaret was not named after.
The death certificate possibly has the wrong mother’s name.
This naming convention was only partly followed and they simply preferred the name Helen.

My questions: which is most likely?
Did families use middle names at this time and the names were simply not recorded?

Here is William and Mary in the censuses.
Hogg, William and Mary Waldie 1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a155fbff4040b9d6e751d9b

Hogg, William and Mary Waldie 1851 Census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59046ef0e9379091b137c97b

And here is a possible link to her father:
Thomas and Helen Waldie - 1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a155fc0f4040b9d6e751f6b

To add to the confusion there is a Thomas Waldie who marries Helen Robson in 1785 - who I have seen ( I think wrongly) linked on Ancestry as the mother of Mary.

I think the oldest son, Andrew, appears on the 1851 census as Andrew Hog - Hardes Mill Place, Nenthorn,Berwickshire as an Agricultural Labourer working for Richard Waldie (head) wife Margaret and Andrew Waldie (brother). I think these Waldie’s are possibly related to Mary Waldie - maybe her brothers but I have not yet found the link and it may just be coincidence.

It would be great to hear from anyone with Waldie’s in their tree and if anyone can help me to put these pieces of the puzzle together.

Thanks.

[MonicaL]

Hi there

Thomas Waldie and Helen Robson are still having children up to 1804:

NELLY WALDIE
Parents THOMAS WALDIE/NELLY ROBSON
12/07/1804
Ref 803/10 308
Roxburgh

Also,

MARGARET WALDIE
Parents THOMAS WALDIE/ELEN ROBSON
28/11/1801
Ref 803/10 303
Roxburg

Have you tried following up possible siblings to Mary to see what they show for their mother. Entries where only parent mentioned is Thomas:

James 1788
John 1793
Thomas 1798
John 1807
Mary 1810

All entries in Roxburgh.

Monica

[MonicaL]

If I am reading this www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/waldie/109/ correctly, someone has checked the death cert of John b. 1807 and been able to confirm mother as Helen Robson? His death date is given, so something that can be checked on Scotlands People.

Note that there are two John sons on the list. I thought first may have died and the name re-used, but the link above has details on first John. As always, best to verify details yourself rather than take on someone's notes without seeing the original documents where available.

Monica

[Josephine]

In my tree this pattern is followed apart from the name of the first daughter:

First son - Andrew correct
Second son Thomas - correct
First daughter - Helen -incorrect
Second daughter - Elizabeth -correct.

The way I would look at it is that Helen is the first known daughter. There might have been a daughter who was born before Helen but who died prior to the 1841 census.

The difficulty is that these births happened prior to civil registration. Unless you know for certain that the baptism and burial records for their denomination and area are complete, and you've gone through them all, and you know for certain that every child of theirs was baptized, there might be another child or two waiting to be discovered.

Regards,
Josephine

[DudelsackHogg]

Monica. Thanks for the link. That’s actually part of the problem, if Helen/Ellen Robson is the mother then the name of the death certificate is wrong. Mary Waldie’s death certificate is the only firm link I have to the mother. Her death was reported by her husband William Hogg and you would think, if he named his daughter Helen, he would at least know the forename. Margaret Stevenson.

Josephine. Thanks. I am cautiously using the naming convention. The birth of their son James interestingly says:

6 boys living 1 deceased. 3 girls living 1 deceased.

Thanks for you replies.

[MonicaL]

I was about to suggest that you looked at James's 1855 birth reg (so lucky to find one of those always!). Did it not give you also their date of marriage?

Mistakes did/do happen on registrations unfortunately. With what you have mentioned, I would be open minded that William Hogg could have made a mistake regarding his mother in law's name 

Scottish naming pattern can be a useful guide when used, although not always followed or in a strict order.

Were the likely siblings living nearby? Just wondering whether they acted as sponsors to each other children's christenings.

Monica 

[DudelsackHogg]

It does. Date of marriage is given - I don’t think I ever noted that down.  1831 Roxburgh.

They did all pretty much stay in Roxburgh until around 1900 when they moved up to Portobello. I’ll need to check more of documents I have. Half of the battle is trying to keep some sort of order and system, I have a downloads folder on my computer where I’ve “filed” all the certificates I’ve found or downloaded.

I went ahead and checked John Waldie’s death certificate. I can confirm it says Helen Robson. I was hoping there might be a Helen M- or some other hint that might start to explain where Margaret came from.

Thanks.

[Josephine]

The naming convention can be very helpful sometimes.

Have you looked for burial records and/or monumental inscriptions for Thomas Waldie and Margaret Stevenson?

Regards,
Josephine

[MonicaL]

I had a look and all that seems to be coming up is discussion around Thomas and wife Helen R such as an old post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=67903.18

Monica