Alfred Cecil Arbuthnott born in Ceylon - settled in Australia

[Evenmoresmiths]

Thank yo

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article169781131
Wife and daughter travelling to England for marriage of wife's sister Joyce in 1929.

The marriage was between Robert A SAMMONS and Aileen L J WEBB (registered at Kensington June qtr 1929). An engagement notice reads:
"Mr. R. A Sammons and Miss Webb
The engagement is announced between Robert A Sammons , M.B., Ch.B., of Kingswood, Bristol, and Joy, only daughter of Captain and Mrs. Clement Webb, Fernwood, Ashford, Middlesex."
Tuesday,  Oct. 2, 1928, The Times

Clement WEBB married Annie Florence PATTERSON registered at Shardlow, Derby in March qtr 1907 (their son Charles Fortescue WEBB mmn PATTERSON was born Derby Jun qtr 1908 - an engagement notice for him similar to that above appears in the Times on Thursday,  Sept. 26, 1935.)

So Alfred's wife, Sarah Amelia PATTERSON, was not the sister of the Aileen Joy WEBB, but possible an Aunt.  :
Thank you for this.  Aileen Lucy Joyce Webb is Annie Florence Patterson's daughter.  I knew about them.  Any information is good information for me.  So now I just have to find where Sarah and Alfred's daughter (my mother in law RIP) came from.  May have been adopted or an intra family adoption.  That is the mystery.

[maddys52]

So now I just have to find where Sarah and Alfred's daughter (my mother in law RIP) came from.  May have been adopted or an intra family adoption.  That is the mystery.

Do you know your mother-in-law's birth date? That may help to track down a birth certificate. I'm assuming she was Edna Joyce ?

[Evenmoresmiths]

That is the $50,000 question.  She had no birth certificate.  She does not exist in BDM's for Qld, NSW, or Vic as Edna Joyce. Nor can I find her on UK Free BMD. I have 2 possible birth dates which have not panned out.  This is why I think she was either adopted or an unwanted child from another part of the family in the UK.  I have done a lot research looking for possibilities, so far, without success. She may have been Alfred Cecil Smith's daughter but I don't believe Sarah Amelia Patterson Harwood Smith is her birth mother.  Never the less, Joyce loved Sarah.  I saw another post about the corruption of Arbuthnott.  Some typist had a bad day when Sarah Amelia's death certificate was produced.  She is listed as Sarah Amelia Arbuthews Smith, which is a typo as far as I can tell. 

[majm]

Hi,

From the 1915 marriage of Alfred and Sarah, .... any children  noted on that Vic bdm marriage cert?

JM.

[Evenmoresmiths]

No children listed on the marriage certificate, and absolutely no known reason for the marriage to have been solemnized in Melbourne. Long way to go when you are already living west of Mackay in Queensland. Her family as in her children are reasonably sure Edna Joyce was born in 1919 or 1920.  Because of an event that happened to Joyce later in life, an earlier birthdate is not really feasible.  I also have photos taken in 1926 so its almost certain she could not have been born before 1919 or 1920.

[majm]

Was Edna baptised and if so, were there Godparents  .... sometimes drawn from extended family, but also from the close friends of the baby's parents.  Perhaps seeking out descendants of Godparents may lead to contacting people who are stuck with a Qld birth from 1920s and cannot find what happened next.

Qld bdm marriage certs are not as informative as Vic bdm ones, but does Edna's qld marriage give :
Her then age,
Her place of birth
Her father's name and occupation
Her mother's name and former names including maiden names
And if she was not yet 21 when marrying, the m.c. May note who gave consent for her to be married and their relationship.   For example, I have seen  Qld marriage registration where the consent was noted as yyyy ZZZZ, foster mother of the groom gave written consent for......    That was for a lad aged 20 years to marry in 1943. 

ADD the bride was already 22, so she gave her own consent simply by her own signature on the documentation.   


JM

[maddys52]

That is the $50,000 question.  She had no birth certificate.  She does not exist in BDM's for Qld, NSW, or Vic as Edna Joyce. Nor can I find her on UK Free BMD. I have 2 possible birth dates which have not panned out. 

Yes, I didn't think you knew exactly when, just wondered if you had an approximate date, such as did you celebrate her birthday on a particular day? That may help in tracking down a birth. (Although I know these things are flexible! My mil celebrates her birthday seemingly on a different date every year, and OH found out just a couple of years ago that he is actually a year older than we all thought.)

Have looked for a travel record of Sarah Amelia and daughter in 1929, hoping it may have age and place of birth, but no luck so far ...

[majm]

One of the more recent features of Qld BDM online website allows for some wildcard searches .... so if you 'know' someone's likely day and month birthdate, but are unsure of year, it can be worthwhile 'trawling', if their marriage cert (most Australian States give then age and place of birth of the bride and the groom) gives their then age when marrying ...

For example,
entering Edna Joy* or just Edna for given name and *S or just * for surname and then selecting Births and the option of years ... so 1915 to 1924 1921 (oops, 100 year rule !) and then trawl, remembering to keep on scrolling when you get to the option to 'show more results'  .... reason .... the Qld bdm online index displays the day and month as well as the year        and 'Edna Joy*' gives Edna and Joy/Joyce whereever they occur as given names within that 1915-1924 (oops, 100 year rule) parameter.... not just in that sequence, and could be middle names 

But if you knew for example that she was born 25 December, but not sure of the year .... wow ... or if you knew from her marriage certificate that she was 19 when married ... that is helpful in further restricting the years ....

Also, have you considered DNA for extended members of your husband's line ?

JM  EDITED,  I ... yep ME .... I forgot the 100 year rule        I am in hot water from my rellies, including both the NSW BDM retired Senior Officers .. ...              

[Evenmoresmiths]

Hi, thanks for the ideas.  I have tried all of your suggestions several times, searching various ways. I even tried going through every female born the the birth dates we know about.  No joy whatsoever. I have the marriage certificate which states Edna Joyce was 21 when she married, and her Dad did agree to the marriage. However, I have also found lots of anomalies with the information provided by dear old Dad.  I believe her Dad was very good at hiding the real deal.  I also tried to find her baptism certificate.  Found out from the relevant Anglican Diocese, coincidentally where I used to work, that the records from the period I was interested in were not kept by the Diocese but by the priest who would have done the baptism. He entered the details in a book which he kept and took with him to his next posting, so stymied again.  Waiting on a response from Anglican Diocese of Melbourne about the marriage records and whether Banns were read etc.  Might jag something there.