Author Topic: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?  (Read 554 times)

Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« on: Monday 05 April 21 10:36 BST (UK) »
Hi to all,
Hoping someone can supply information / guide me in the right direction.??
What I am asking mainly for is for information on how to find / access Ships passenger records across the Atlantic between the years of 1877 & 1900.?

This is a Brickwall of a Brickwall that has been a problem to the family for quite some time on both sides of the Atlantic.?
It concerns an Ancestor, my G / Grandfather's Brother, who was born in Liverpool, Lancashire 1854 ??.
He has Married in 1874 and with his English wife he has four children in England by the end of year 1881.

The 1881 Census is the last English Census found of him being in England.

By 1883 his English Wife has remarried. (  Assume bigamously.?? )

The next Census/es that he appears on are American 1900 - 1910 and the 1920 Censuses.
He himself ( bigamously?? ) Marries in America in 1896, and has four Children born by 1920. He dies in Jan.1930.

This is where both the English / American Family/s are confused ( Brickwall? ) as to what the American Censuses show / reveal.?
These three censuses they have him of arriving / entering America between 1877 and 1881.?? - No earlier American Census has been found on him before 1900.?

 ( English records have him of Fathering three? English Chlidren between 1876 and 1881? )
 ( American Censuses  have him of being in America since 1877.? )
This info is / has been conflicting to both Family's on each side of the Atlantic on what to believe?

As to what records show, just how has he or someone managed to Father Children in England as the 1881 Census show's and also be able to be in America between the same years? of 1877-1881?

As then the only way across the Atlantic was by Ship ( 1877 - 1881? ). I am  looking / searching for information of how to search Ships Passenger Lists of that time for my Great Grandfather's Brother.
When he went to America he changed his name from Harry Wentzell b 1854/6 to Harry Sadler/Saddler.

Appreciate any help / advice, Thank you,
 and thank you for taking the time to read my post   Best Regards Just J



Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH
Roberts GLAMORGAN,WALES

Online CaroleW

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Re: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 05 April 21 10:39 BST (UK) »
Have you checked the Ellis Island website
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)

Online *Sandra*

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Re: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 05 April 21 11:13 BST (UK) »
Ellis Island officially opened as an immigration station on January 1, 1892

Family search have some New York Passenger Lists 1820 - 1891

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1849782

Harry could have arrived at other destinations ?  Canada would also be a possibility, it was cheaper to travel to Canada than the USA at that time.

If you have found him in 1881, surely it would be unlikely he was on a passenger lists 1877 - 1881
It is not uncommon for immigration years to vary on US census, sometimes not accurate at all.

Sandra
"We search for information, but the burden of proof is always with the thread owner"

Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

British Census copyright The National Archives; Canadian Census copyright Library and Archives Canada


Online Christine53

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Re: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 05 April 21 12:02 BST (UK) »
This could be him :

Hy Wentzell 26 b abt 1855
dep Liverpool
arr Quebec 2 May 1881
ship : Polynesian
Census information  Crown Copyright
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline RsgP

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Re: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 05:49 GMT (UK) »
Harry Saddler (Wentzell) was my great grandfather. I just visited his gravesite a couple of weeks ago. The youngest of his 4 children in America was my grandmother. I have his obituary, and have been trying to figure out what is true and what isn't.  ???  He was a man of many hats, apparently.  I too have struggled to find exactly when he arrived in America, and where he entered.  I have always looked at the possibility that he came here through Canada, in that the obit. states "He landed at the mouth of the St. Lawrence River, and bid goodby to the sea." I have not been able to locate him on any ship records there or at Ellis Island, but I will keep trying.  His Jan. 1930 obituary stated he came to northern Idaho about 45 years ago, which would have been approx. 1885. With a birthdate of 1854, per the obituary, and his Certificate of Death, that would have made him 31 when he landed in Idaho. I am also wondering if the story of his father going down with his vessel (submarine) is true?  Have you or anyone in the family ever verified that story? 

I am quite anxious to be in touch, and compare notes and thoughts with you! 

Offline RsgP

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Re: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 16:24 GMT (UK) »
@ Christine53

I think you are correct that this is Harry on the Polynesian coming into Quebec!!  Per the record, his arrival on this ship was in May, 1881, and he was age 26.  Making his birthdate approx. 1855, which the record states. 
However, arriving in May, was prior to his birthday of that year, which was in October.  As such, turning 27 in 1881 would have made his birth year 1854, which is the date I have from his obituary and Certificate of Death.  Thank you so much for finding this!!  It is very much appreciated.  I now know when and where my great grandfather arrived! At least one time, as there may have been other trips?!  ;)

Offline tivokatya

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Re: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 19:47 GMT (UK) »
I'm descended from Harry Wentzell Saddler's oldest son, Perry. Any light that can be shed on this bizarre family would be so greatly appreciated.

I think it's likely that Harry's grandfather, not his father, was lost at sea. Harry's father, Albert Wentzell, was listed on the 1861, 1871, and 1881 UK Census as being a fireman on a steam boat. Albert's father, James John Wentzell was a marine engineer and died in 1863. I can't find a death record for Albert, and there's a widowed Albert Wentzell living in the poorhouse in the 1901 and 1911 Census records. His profession is "stoker." If this is our Albert, he definitely didn't go down with the ship.

Here's Harry's obituary. Take it with large grains of salt. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Wentzell-127

Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Re: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 24 November 21 20:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi RsgP / tivokatya,
      Welcome you both to Rootschat
     Please any further message's can you go through the personnel message.
         Regards
Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH
Roberts GLAMORGAN,WALES

Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Re: Brickwall on Armerican arrival, 1877 -1881?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 25 November 21 11:58 GMT (UK) »
I'm descended from Harry Wentzell Saddler's oldest son, Perry. Any light that can be shed on this bizarre family would be so greatly appreciated.

I think it's likely that Harry's grandfather, not his father, was lost at sea.

 ***** Upto yet there is no Wentzell record found of any person dying/being lost at sea?

  Harry's Grandfather, if it was Albert Wentzell as the Father,would have been 
  JAMES JOHN WENTZELL b 1816. d 1863

  No birth certificate has yet been found on HARRY b 1854-Liverpool-Oct 28

  I have an understanding that JAMES JOHN WENTZELL could also be 
  HARRY's Father. As we have not ( yet ?) located a B.C for HARRY b 1854, but
  what we do have is B.C for ALFRED who was born 1856/7. 
 
  This certificate shows a JAMES WENTZELL as ALFRED's Father.?
  If JAMES JOHN was the Father of HARRY -- GOTTLEIP ( JOHN ) WENTZELL, who
  died in 1841, Cripplegate, would then be HARRY's  Great Gandfather instead.

  HARRY's obituary I do take it as being totally false / misleading ??

  Again taking into account of who the Father is, is JAMES WENTZELL the JAMES
  JOHN WENTZELL b 1816 or is he the son JAMES THOMAS WENTZELL who was
  born 1837
  JAMES THOMAS WENTZELL began a 20 year Army in 1858. He was discharged 
  from service in 1878.
  When discharged from his 20 year device, JAMES THOMAS Marries a SARAH
  WILSON in Hounslow,Middx.
  Their Marriage Certificate has his Father entered ass JAMES THOMAS WENTZELL
   and not JAMES JOHN ??

  ALFRED's b.c details are the only document details that has a JAMES WENTZELL 
  as his/their Father ?? ****

 
as listed on the 1861, 1871, and 1881 UK Census as being a fireman on a steam boat. Albert's father, James John Wentzell was a marine engineer and died in 1863. I can't find a death record for Albert, and there's a widowed Albert Wentzell living in the poorhouse in the 1901 and 1911 Census records. His profession is "stoker." If this is our Albert, he definitely didn't go down with the ship.

Here's Harry's obituary. Take it with large grains of salt. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Wentzell-127
Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH
Roberts GLAMORGAN,WALES