Author Topic: Ruling out incest  (Read 659 times)

Offline LMChapman

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Ruling out incest
« on: Tuesday 06 April 21 16:46 BST (UK) »
I've found a Roman Catholic baptism record for someone born illegitimate in 1905 which states that the father was 'William Fraser as the mother says'. The trouble is the mother is also a Fraser and has a brother named William, and both of them live in the family home in 1901 and 1911.
They lived in a small parish and my census searches for more men of this name in the area do not offer as many other options as I'd like!
It's probably not an incestuous birth, but does anyone have any advice on how I could rule this out more definitively?
It seems very unlikely to me that she would have had the child baptised and actually named her brother as the father right?!
Murray, McKelvie, Smith, Morrison, Latta, McClelland, Manson, Ingram, Cowan

Offline DonM

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,442
    • View Profile
Re: Ruling out incest
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 06 April 21 18:47 BST (UK) »
Are you talking about the one baptised in Aberdeen?

If so, its states his father was William Fraser and mother Jane Reid; Godfather was Adam Reid and Godmother Mrs. Duncan.  Btw...the fist column lists Legitimacy their line says "Legit."

If the "actual" (not a transcription) census entry from Scotland's People states William Sr as her brother then the enumerator made an error. 

Don

Offline LMChapman

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Ruling out incest
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 06 April 21 19:23 BST (UK) »
No that's not the person I'm talking about. I don't want to share any more details as it's not my family. The baptism is not on ScotlandsPeople.
Murray, McKelvie, Smith, Morrison, Latta, McClelland, Manson, Ingram, Cowan


Offline Spidermonkey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,612
  • https://www.apigintime.net/blog
    • View Profile
Re: Ruling out incest
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 06 April 21 19:46 BST (UK) »
I've found a Roman Catholic baptism record for someone born illegitimate in 1905 which states that the father was 'William Fraser as the mother says'. The trouble is the mother is also a Fraser and has a brother named William, and both of them live in the family home in 1901 and 1911.
They lived in a small parish and my census searches for more men of this name in the area do not offer as many other options as I'd like!
It's probably not an incestuous birth, but does anyone have any advice on how I could rule this out more definitively?
It seems very unlikely to me that she would have had the child baptised and actually named her brother as the father right?!

Have you had a look at newspaper reports?  Not necessarily about the (potential) incest, but to see whether there was another William Fraser in the right area at the right time?  1905 is obviously bang in the middle of 2 censuses and so it could well be that a WF moved into the area in 1903 and left in 1907 (for example) and so wouldn't appear on a census.

Offline LMChapman

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Ruling out incest
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 06 April 21 20:09 BST (UK) »
I'll give that a try, thanks.
Murray, McKelvie, Smith, Morrison, Latta, McClelland, Manson, Ingram, Cowan

Offline Rosinish

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,655
  • PASSED & PAST
    • View Profile
Re: Ruling out incest
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 07 April 21 02:37 BST (UK) »
Is the father's area of residence & occ. given e.g. Fisherman which would be a reason for not appearing on census records as he was probably out on a boat?

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 23,978
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Ruling out incest
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 07 April 21 03:26 BST (UK) »
I wonder ...

Pre WWI...  Scotland ... perhaps the R.C. priest was Irish ....

I explain .... in New South Wales Australia, for most of 20th century, many/most R.C. parish priests were Irish or Irish trained .... so they were not familiar with Australian accents.   

And until the 1960s, most denominations used Thou and Thy rather that You  and Your. 

So if the Priest in Scotland back in the 1900s asked the baby's mum "who is the father"  would she hear it as "who is THY father" ..   yes, quite possibly, and thereby be unaware that her answer was recorded as perhaps naming her baby's father and for 21st eyes to consider a taboo relationship.

JM

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline GR2

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,487
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Ruling out incest
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 07 April 21 09:18 BST (UK) »
"William Fraser as the mother says" is somewhat weak for a priest to write if it is a case of incest. You would expect a bit more fulmination.

Have you looked at the actual birth certificate to see what it says?

Offline LMChapman

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Ruling out incest
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 07 April 21 09:47 BST (UK) »
Is the father's area of residence & occ. given e.g. Fisherman which would be a reason for not appearing on census records as he was probably out on a boat?

Annie

No annoyingly neither occ or residence is given. Looking at the rest of the page's entries the lawful children's father's occupations are given but when it's a 'mother claims this is the father situation' no extra info is given for the father.
Murray, McKelvie, Smith, Morrison, Latta, McClelland, Manson, Ingram, Cowan